Moderator: We are here to talk about Gaming for The Greater Good. One of the things I want to delve into is what that means is the Greater Good the right monicker for this is implied one thing and then reading through the topic clearly that’s broader than what I think of is sort of colloquially the greater good we will get into that in a few minutes. Let the panelist introduce themselves and what they do briefly There will be points for Clarity and Brevity and then we will jump into some of the topics here, may be I will start with you Molly Molly Kittle: Clarity and Brevity okay, Molly Kittle, I run the Client Services Team at Bunchball. We are a company right down here in the valley. We have about 50 large enterprise customers who use our platform and our consulting services to add game mechanics and game dynamics to non- gaming environments Nicole Lazzaro: My name is Nicole Lazzaro and I am a consultant in the game industry for the past 19 years. I run XEODesign and essentially I make games more fun. I am most known for having the audacity to ask the question you know can games make us change how we feel, and I used in 2000, 2003, 2004 I used Paul Ekman’s facial action coding, where you measure emotions on the face that really unlock what makes game fun so that’s what I do Mark Nelson: Hi, my name is Mark Nelson. I research Mass Collaboration and Mass Interpersonal Persuasion here at Stanford Persuasive Technology Lab and last year we also spun out a new lab Stanford Peace Innovation Lab where we are essentially trying to take everything we know about using technology to illicit desirable behaviors and build a platform where we can measure how much impact we can have doing that Byron Reeves: I am Byron Reeves. I am Professor here at Stanford in the Department of Communication. I am a Media Psychologist, I do empirical experiments about how people think and feel in relation to interesting features of interactive technology. The last six years we have been chasing juicy features of multi-player games in the lab. I am also co-founder of a startup called Seriosity. And we are trying to take game mechanics and game sensibilities and psychology to the enterprise and figure out how to build a venue that is a game where people can go to work Moderator: And Byron may be we will start with you and may be you could just explain game dynamics, broadly speaking what are they and why do they work in everybody can add in but – Byron Reeves: Well actually we all have our own list, chapter four in total engagement, by Reeves and Read is our list that you know I won’t go through them all but there are mechanics that are reliably used in games that have been successful over the years that engage people. You started out with one of them points for brevity but levels, teams different features, our list actually is that we are trying to take from the social science literature about how these games work so we are very interested in the feedback and the time domains of feedback, games do really well in short time domains, your workplace might do well and annual reviews or not even in that well in that time scale. So feedback is very interesting. There is notion of social interaction in teams and co-operation as well as competition is very interesting that the mechanic of self representation, finding someway may be it’s a full blown avatar, may be it’s some other way to represent yourself that vesting something of you in the interaction on the screen is terribly engaging and we know that because we are looking at people’s brains while they interact with avatars. So, all this I mean there is a long list I don’t know how long you want to get this There are a lots of lists available but it’s taking these mechanics from trying true recipes in these games and I think there is whole gamification exercise really figuring out how we can take them and drop them in other context other than just entertainment where eye-balls are the criterion and trying to come up with some other metrics to apply them too Nicole Lazzaro: I have a shorter list. So in terms of game mechanics I really love you guys speaking on work that you do. What we have done by looking at people’s faces is we

found that people playing everything from Tetris to Halo, home, school and work, young and old, Diner Dash, World of Worldcraft. We have found that you know player we basically we videotape them and looked at those favorite moments and organized them by emotions, via these emotion clusters. We have four basic groups and we looked at those emotions and what were the similarities and types of choices players were making. And it turns out the games tend to engage us, our best selling games in four ways. The first way is what we call hard – usually the first one is the novelty enclosure and we call it easy fun, you know basically just being able to drive around the track or drive the race track backwards, throw all your since the pull pluck later, driven by curiosity wondering and surprised you have done that yeah, I have done it too. The second one is hard fun which is all about challenge and mastery. So that’s basically is that frustration, oh yeah because that basketball group is way up there and it’s really small. That leads to this feeling of wining like yes, I got the basket sponsored, one grand pre No word in English for that emotion so I use fear, you know at the time for you know like yes I got your body is on fire that’s how I visualize it. And you know there’re goals, obstacles and challenges and obviously points. The third one is the ability to socialize around games. So we have found the games a lot of emotions in games best moments in games happened in social context. Games are an excuse to hang out with your friends. So you have what we call people fun, which has amusement and [inaudible] which is the joy you feel when the arrival experiences misfortune. You also have naches which is a Yiddish term for that pleasure and pride when someone you help succeeds. Lots of great emotions, more emotion and people fun than the other three combined. And people playing in the same room and more emotions in play, then playing same game in different rooms. Lot of social interaction around that so not surprising I mean we realize in 2004 it took us a while to get on Facebook and actually get some good social games, but yeah so that’s a big loss but then it was of course serious fun and the serious fun is all about the ability for game to actually change how I think and feel and behave. After the game is done I have gotten some reward, and some time it’s a badge but more importantly it’s now I am smarter I have lost weights, I play DDR or that I may be closer to my friends or some value that that game experience creates. Players enjoy games that actually change how their all games teach, so those are kind of the four keys Moderator: And then Mark I had a question for you and I will bring it back to Molly, is this multicultural, are these you know fundamental ways people think and behave and react or have you found that not to be the case? Mark Nelson: So there are levels of this that are basic biology, we don’t think of ourselves this way very often but we human beings are actually a herd of animal, we are right in there with the gazelles and the zebras and so forth. And that means we are hard wired to collaborate and cooperate much more than we are hard wired to fight with each other And so if you want to trigger those in [inaudible] and oxytocin dose and so on. If you are coming at this from a business perspective you should think yourself as a drug dealer, dealing with legal drugs and you should be thinking about how do I trigger what biology has been hard wiring into us for millions of years in terms of social bonding, this feeling of connectedness, the feeling of being part of something greater than ourselves all of those things are deeply wired into our biology Molly Kittle: I agree but I think I disagree with the drug dealer part Legal drug dealer Molly Kittle: Oh, I think what I do is I really draw from the patterns and then I model the pattern you know in the real world to you know model a game mechanic around it, and if you go too hard like you create a skinner box, skinner box is very reliable very predictable. But if you create a skinner box, a skinner box it will have the behavior but they are not fun. You know you are just addicted to the game and it’s actually then causing a lot of pain so you have to be careful Moderator: And so Molly that was really this nice thing, and my next question which was does it have to be fun? Molly Kittle: No, it doesn’t have to be fun in the sense of that we think of fun. I think enjoyable, satisfying, gratifying. Fun I think frankly has gotten a bad rep, fun can be scary to a banking website, fun can be scary to a CEO who is trying to increase productivity in the workforce Nicole Lazzaro: But then you mean the trimphone Molly Kittle: The trimphone can be yes, but then a human fun absolutely so I guess it’s important to differentiate between the word and the emotion. One of the things that really, when we did our research about fun, what’s so interesting and why I want to say well people are banding about this term fun, well what is that and we really met more towards engagement because this wave of engagement but it’s interesting that hard fun is different than easy fun, it sounds like hard fun is actually you know my favorite

player quote is a wife of a hardcore PC gamer, she says I always know how my husband feels about a game, if he screams I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I know two thing, (A) he is going to finish it, and (B) he is going to buy version two So when we have fun we are often working, we are often experiencing a lot of frustration in fact the only way the arms go out for a nice fear always when you are so frustrated you are about ready to throw that mobile phone or whatever it is out of the window and you succeed at that point that’s when you win Moderator: So I have mentioned the topic is Gaming for the Greater Good. Is that a good topic? We are talking about a variety of things here. When I read that topic I thought this was for social change in the NPO sense of the world not business, not necessarily education. Here Gaming for the Greater Good, we are right – Molly Kittle: I would want to argue with that, it’s like the only way we are going to get greater good is if we change the business. I mean it’s got to be integrated, I follow a lot what Kevin Jones says on this and it’s sort of like he has his metaphor of you know you work in an office you know for part of the day or for all of the day you come home with money in your pocket. You then go to a charity and then you know in one pocket when you put and you had another pocket pull out money to give to the charity need to reverse the damage that was done by the hours you put in at the office So I think something about that system could be a little bit more optimized perhaps, a little more efficient. So I don’t buy complete bifurcation but yeah Mark Nelson: I think there is some we are just looking at the narrow slice of this, and we built on a lot of buyers work on engagement we realize that some point in the peace innovation lab that if you look at positive engagement and if there is some buckets about you know you got to get people from ignoring each other, we will ignore the negative side of engagement how to reduce conflict but if you just get people from ignoring each other, to being aware of each other, to paying attention, to communicating, these are all things we can measure, we can measure the quality and the point of view of those kind of interactions a little bit of coordination, a little co-operation each one enables the next layer basically. When you get out to collaboration where you have people doing things for mutual benefit that’s a really good proxy for peace for us and that’s completely measurable and quantifiable in lots of beautiful ways. And the more work that gets done in web-based platforms, the more hard metrics we have about exactly what’s possible that I don’t know how many of you have seen the work we did with Facebook but we can measure interactions that are directly representative of some aspect of peace in really interesting ways so just for example 67,113 Pakistanis and Indians friended each other on Facebook yesterday, we never had that kind of data before you know that precession, that scale and that dynamic like they are going to give us trailing data by the minute if we ask for it. So yeah I think there is huge potential here to change the world for the good in really interesting ways, and I think game mechanics is a tool box that we simply have never had before that I think takes us pretty close to a new human super power in the same way what I mean by that is in the same way that for the most of history we are looking up at the birds going oh if only we could fly like the birds but we can’t and then the hundred and some years ago suddenly technology came together in interesting ways and suddenly within a decade we were flying further and faster and carrying more than any species ever That’s what I mean by a human super power I think we are on the verge of that kind of potential for collective action Nicole Lazzaro: But I think you can just add couple of more examples one of our clients built the game on Facebook called Happy Oasis takes place in the Middle East and you click on camels instead of cows. And if you can imagine 60% of the population in the Middle East is under the age of 24 You imagine the sort of you know the kinds of changes that you could actually make through you know in terms of collaborative you know game mechanics you know in that with that kind of population you could actually create social bonds that cross tribal lines and I think that’s really amazing that we might be able to do. And in fact what your games have always lead the interface design industry in terms of new interfaces so we have always you know there were pie menus in the sems, there was gestures on the V you know his voice control all of these things have happened in Games First. So there is no question in my mind that even if we can’t have a specific game you know that actually changed the world we are going to be able to prototype you know new types of dynamics, new superpowers to create new ways, new

days way to dealing with each other, I mean the game that we are working on right now with my company which is called the Tilt: Flip’s Adventure in 1.5 Dimensions. And I have used this model the model of four keys to fun to actually I have created the first game on the iPhone to use we use accelerometer which I here with iPhoneDevCamp and we have now get a bigger version of the game on the iPod which I can show later if you like. And what you do is you earn Tilt points but eating carbon out of the air and gathering planting seeds. Those Tilt points are geo coded so we have got people playing from here to Shanghai and now we are partnering with companies to do things in the real world, so like with the Vermont Energy Investment Company they are a line item on the Vermont Energy Bill where actually taking some of their we are actually you know working on some games to actually have people do stuff in the real world to conserve energy they earn points in the game. So there is some electricity power Moderator: That was where we wanted to go and this is really relevant, everybody would like because you are doing perspectives on it but how are we talking primarily about online or a combination of online and offline and I know Byron that’s near and dear to some of the things you are doing so many – Byron: Yeah, I actually think one of the more interesting developments in the games is the blurring of that distinction between online and offline and this is terribly engaging. If you turn off the lights in your house the smart meter recognizes that electrical use is down and that data is transferred to your game screen and you get 10 points on your iPhone or the Carbon Monster Diaz or whatever it is we have worked on that game as well. Then your house becomes a joy stick for play on a screen in media and the same in transportation and health. If it’s blood test insulin related test and adolescence are cooperating to see what group can have the best scores in compliance that can be input into the game as well and transportation driving, there is lots of interesting new car possibilities for games because there are sensors in the world that are providing automatically a lot of data by what’s going on. So you get this blurring and that is terribly engaging I mean there is no as part of our work here over the last 20 years there is no switch in the brain that sleeps when you go from real life to mediated life and so it’s very important to recognize that that blurring can really created lot of that engagement. So I am very high on the ability, if you are working in a company and what you do on your screen, how you resolve a call that’s come into a call center influences how your team does in a virtual game I mean that can be a very engaging blurring of those two worlds. So I really like that possibility for new games Moderator: How are you playing it Molly? Molly Kittle There is a couple of different ways we are applying it and then also in the industry OPOWER is a company that’s not a customer of ours but I find what they are dong incredibly compelling because it’s the now version of the dream that Byron just mentioned. So many times pay attention to what someone’s doing they optimize for the metric that we are measuring and OPOWER just basically gives you a point of reference where you sit in relation to others in your neighborhood in terms of energy consumption. You either are consuming less or more and if you are consuming more you have got a sad face and if you are consuming less you get a happy face. And so people are changing their behavior to optimize for the happy faces and that’s a great example of something very offline but incredibly tangible and impactful and noncomplex. The other point that I want to make about employee productivity. Byron you mentioned you want people in a call center to answer more calls. There is a company we work with called LiveOps and they have a distributed call center these employees aren’t actually employees, they are contractors so LiveOps has no ability to mandate do they take training, do they show up to work and so how do you organize and crow a workforce that is uncontrollable. And they have used game mechanics and game concepts to help them do that by rewarding users for taking training, getting certifications, displaying their badges other call center employees can look at badges and proficiency and come to certain people with questions. They are really motivating a community even though it’s distributed Moderator: They are a motivating force, organizing force, scoring mechanism what I have missed in the – Molly Kittle: Well I would add that you have to be careful especially with scoring points that unbalances Twitter in fact this gamification idea can actually kill. Okay if you remember, if you have ever driven across the Bay Bridge that they have introduced, the game designers from Bay Bridge have introduced a variable toll rate to encourage off rush hour travel, off peak travel which actually works more people drive when it’s not rush hour but don’t be on the Bay

Bridge the toll plaza at 06:59 p.m. on a Friday night because literally there would be dozens of cars pulled over on the meeting, people stopped in the active lane looking at the scoreboard waiting for that toll to drop from $6 to $4 Basically if you give people score they will optimize, they will basically change their behavior to optimize it. But then there are secondary effects and so when you are a game designer that secondary effects, those tertiary effects that’s all goes into games. The other thing too is the games also have choices and the games have the emotion profiles So like with the iPhone it’s a very social device which is great and it’s really genius what they did on the operating system because like if I will take my iPhone and share my photos with you well what would you do? You would tab, you pinch, you zoom, right to look at the photos. What you do with same gestures but on the back of my hand we better be on a date or something because there are so much social emotion meaning in those gestures and how lovely for a social device to actually map those into the platform. So game design is not just about points but it’s creating these player experiences, these emotional experiences that people go to and there is one, the one of the top Facebook games since the beginning they have always involved people, plants, and pets all of those mechanics are engendered care taking kind of things. It has nothing to do with points and badge, doesn’t mean they are deaf, only there is definitely good mechanics there. But there is other stuff happening that creates something that really matches that social platform Moderator: Mark and Byron what is this application of game dynamics how did they affect leadership and what skills leaders need to have, how they approach leadership and then also beyond leaders, the folks that leaders are interacting with Mark Nelson: Yeah so we did a year long study. I did this with Tom alone it was an HBR piece about a year and half ago, looking at leadership in the more complex multiplayer game so this is a World of Warcraft version where we actually went to IBM, got permission to ask middle level executives to fess up that they would spend 500 hours leveling up to a level 70 and were leaders of online guild and making websites and doing recruiting and performance reviews and what not in this complex skill. And we actually looked at how leadership happened in those skills and how it compared to real life. And a couple of headlines are really interesting. One is that, so first of all these are substantial organizations that happened in this game. This is not Farmville type play this is more sophisticated play but it’s worthy of emulating I think. So these are substantial organizations that are over months and even years that can involve tens and hundreds of people in a hierarchy with the sharing mechanisms, performance reviews as I mentioned, a need to settle disputes and whatnot. One of the things that the games provide that really influenced ideas about leadership is enough metrics, enough quantification, enough information, enough transparency about expertise, about how people are doing, about who contributed what to the rate even your damage per second or your contributions per time unit. There was enough information that leadership seemed to be more property of the environment of the games than of an intrinsic quality of the individuals that were doing a leading. So it’s not you are born to lead and we just need to find the right ones and mentor them but it’s you lead, now I will lead tomorrow, you seem to be doing better on this task you go so leadership happened really quickly or transitions happened very quickly and the environment became a substantial part of that leadership which is really kind of an optimistic view of leadership that if you provide enough transparency, if everybody knows what’s going on first of all everybody can be a better follower so leadership is a little bit easier in that respect as well. So imagine, so what we have done is imagine taking that transparency that happens in World of Warcraft and dropping it on a large national retail sales chain. What if all 200,000 people that worked in your company knew everything about the sales activities of those 200,000 people? So you could find out the guy that you will encounter in Akron, Ohio what fantasy team he was on or she was on and what points were being collected, teams being formed, quests being and that transparency really has an interesting opportunity to open up leadership so it’s not that supervisory but I know what you are trying to do, you

have got a hard job supervising us all. I will help out and our team will win and I get to share and the spoils of the team victory Molly Kittle: How much of the factor that you were actually in a play environment do you think that that helped? How did that influence? You know you are in a play environment so it doesn’t really matter if I fail as a leader, how big a role did that play in mushrooming at [Overlapping] Mark Nelson: Yeah that’s a good question, the fact that failure doesn’t quite hurt as much as I think important and it may even less because it is in a play environment but it can hurt. If I have got 100 friends that I am playing with and I look bad in the ring that’s a knock and it’s every bit a real knock and I am going to be depressed and my social relationships that evening are equal to a bad day at work So the social part of it is very much there even though it is a play environment. What the managers are about, several hundred managers that we interviewed at IBM what they said was I believe it’s the same thing it’s the same process. I am taking things from the game world and applying it at work and vise versa Moderator: I mean in that context this is all volunteer labor so to speak that’s people taking their free time, not time they are being paid with and if you fail then as a leader in that context it doesn’t have certain ramifications but it certainly has other ramifications. You don’t get to keep your position because you have a title and there is an art structure you are only there by virtue of people saying we will follow you. Well it might be an interesting thing to do in real life if that wasn’t the case as well Mark Nelson: I think if you just add may be nuances a little bit the leadership is becoming much more collaborative that’ s really clear and the pieces about that seem to be really important about it’s much more now about creating an environment that people want to become part of. And so leadership suddenly becomes much more about nurturing, about pushing from behind, about supporting your people, about pushing them forward and providing platform for them providing a spotlight for them, getting out of their way Those all seem to be really identifying factors and this is, I have been going through this personally I mean when I retired from banking it was early 90s and it was very much a command & control organization. People did what I said because I paid them and damn it if they didn’t I fired them That doesn’t work anymore especially in an organization where you have the whole bunch of volunteers working for you because they just love the project and they only care about what you are doing so that’s being culture shock. There is one other issue though and that is a whole lot of things that we used to think with leadership are actually management and administration. Those things are getting better than software. Those jobs are going away and anybody who thinks that’s leadership should be paying attention to the fact that that’s getting architected into the game mechanics. And there won’t be people doing that anymore and that will be a good thing because now all the politics that goes with those kinds of gatekeeper jobs is becoming much more transparent in software itself. People trust software more than they trust human in that situation Nicole Lazzaro: The interesting thing that I am pulling out of that too as far as like what is a core game mechanic is that games are and what fascinates, what pulled me in the games from the very beginning is that games are I did a lot of user interface design for Roxio and number of different other companies and what was interesting or – is we get games are self-motivating tasks there is nobody holding a performance bonus or something like that for you to learn Photoshop I mean for you to learn World of Warcraft. You know you are paid to learn Photoshop and so there is a lot of interesting things if you look at games for their interfaces and what is it that they do it creates this nice self-motivating and that’s how do we master challenges like with hard fun we can actually use these games to figure out well how do we apply some of these things take them out of games and then put them in into the work itself. So for example I just gave a talk at the game developers conference and in this for the Smartphone Summit and what I did was I sort of slide with this futuristic like what would a task look like and one of the parts I most like is just we usually have like this distraction radar like a heads up display for the interruption that’s coming but the force that can squash it before it gets to me. Now we don’t want actually visualize it that way but there is a lot of ways that we are going to be able to change how we work and the tools in which we work with they are really, we are basically, we are implementing flashcards right now and the tools we are going to have in the next generation they are going to be much more responsive to what naturally motivates the people Molly Kittle: And that’s I think the key is that this is all about what naturally motivates us and this is the toolset on

top of those natural motivators that extracts them puts them to use in whatever type of environment for whatever type of goal Nicole Lazzaro: Yeah and if you think about a cubicles, I mean let’s face it I mean cubicles are cages for people. It’ s the workplace or a zoo the humane society which shut it down in an hour. Because it’s not suited it fails to provide the metal furniture for people to do the work. We spent so much time in Facebook because all social interactions will extract from the task, we spend so much, we caffeinate ourselves because the work fails to engage us and so we can look at things that software that does engage us for these queues and what is it about this how does all work, how do we get leaders that way and we are going to change the way the workplace works Moderator: That brings the background of earlier topic I would like to dig into it a little bit more just this idea that their game dynamics and we have made this big thing and some of these are fundamental and cross cultural and all that but applied to a business context versus a more social organization business context versus some of the more peace studies. Those applications versus educational applications, are they the same, are we retargeting the same tools or are they different? I mean what are some of the tools that you all use at Bunchball versus Mark some of the tools that you think about or the ways you apply it, we haven’t talked really about education at all but we can dig in I will just sort of open that up and would like to get a level deeper on those Molly Kittle: I think all of us are talking about recognition, transparency, feedback and all of these things work very well in any environment we can think of what human beings are interacting with work, with play socially but the tools that I use on a day to day basis for customers seem a little bit more tangible than the ideas behind them but the points that you mentioned levels, leader boards, badges but those things in and of themselves that’s not the way that’s not the importance and that’s not the motivating factor They tap into what’s already happening inside of us. So you brought up a good point earlier that if you are not a good choice architect then you are going to set yourself up and your users up for a failure so it’s all about designing the experience and taking into consideration yes your business goals you have to make money there is an end goal for the business. But there is also almost more importantly, the people that are driving your business, generating revenue – ROI for you we can talk about that and thinking about how we are measuring and collecting data, telling that return on investment story for engagement all of those things are important but you won’t have a return on investment unless you are thinking very seriously about the user experience, how they are interacting with either the website, the application, the game whatever it might be and what they want, what their identity is, who they are and what motivates them. You asked earlier about do these things impact everyone in the similar way or different types of people impact differently. We are uniquely individual but we do have a common motivating factor. We all do want to be recognized and we all are looking for feedback Nicole Lazzaro: And I think that what we have ignored for years and for decades is that the importance of play. It then has human beings especially in the developed world. I grew up, I spent half of my childhood overseas and it’s quite clear to me get these, that we have really relegated play to sort of this outside that’s just for kids not us, but all games teach and play is actually really all mammal’s play plays a very important part in the learning process whether it’s learning ABCs or learning how to create a balance sheet. And so our tools don’t allow us to play but if you want us to take into here’s some guidelines is what I do to create game out of anything is you want to first simplify the world you then can clarify the goals that will tap into [inaudible] highest flow so if you look up him as well. And then you want to amplify the feedback Mid.Com works so well is because you can set those goals and wow I have never seen progress like bar charts are just so fat. You can really feel your progress along the way. And to that purpose I have also shared whitepapers on my website and I will let you guys into I just opened this URL for the game developers. I have been at San Francisco. It’s called 4K2F, Four Keys to Fun just and that’s routing you to a new place and you can actually download what I call GAME specific game plan and you can create a game plan to save the world and what is a game? It’s Goals, Actions, Motivators and Emotions so GAME, and is little spreadsheet people call as CHANGE. So

there are 13 questions that you answer and you can do in about 15 minutes, you can create a new game to save whatever part the world you want to Moderator: How many of you guys are actually social entrepreneurs or one of you is social entrepreneur? So the thing to pay attention to this interesting here is this toolbox of gamification allows you to look at something that wouldn’t normally be thought of as business and starts actually quantifying what value is. And so a lot of people will look at the word and say peace innovation. This is not turning your philanthropy or else government diplomacy. It turns out actually it’s not, it’s business. We can go in, we are working on a pilot right now with partnership focused on gang violence and we can start mapping what impact gang violence has on property values and on the tax base, and on the mortgage portfolio of banks and lenders and on insurance claims. We can start quantifying that in a great deal of detail and saying this is exactly how much this problem is costing you as a property owner and you as a community member and you as a business and we can identify the businesses where that pain aggregates. Then we can go to them and make a very interesting pitch about how we can minimize their risk or actually increase the value of their portfolio etc. So pay attention to that kind of model because this toolbox allows you to go look at things that were traditionally in the non-profit we can’t figure out how to do business there, we can’t figure out how to make the markets work there. But the things were traditionally in that domain suddenly become really interesting new business propositions when you have this kind of toolbox Mark Nelson: I think there is a great question on what’s the difference between social metrics and the criteria and business criteria and whatnot. I want to make a little bit of admission I think we would all have to an interesting serious game it’s really an interesting portfolio of tools and solutions looking for problems to solve. And the same basket of stuff can be used to make a call center work better, to have volunteers contribute on website, get people to reduce energy use. So it really but each of those different metrics and problems can be radically different And there is an alignment process where you bring your bag of stuff that where it’s in games, the ingredients for different recipes and you really have to spend a lot of time asking about exactly what in this call center is going well and not well and what are we trying to optimize and minimize. And align those metrics and it’s really a difficult process, it’s not just like throw a leader board point system, a narrative teams, etc against wall. There is really especially in the more complex and I would venture in the future the more successful applications that alignment processes, there is really a lot of thinking that goes a lot. If I were making the call center game, I have a game designer and three call center guys on that team board about their ratio. And the same with some of these other social metrics I mean thinking about energy use for example, on reducing energy use, yeah points kind of work without much consideration but it will work a lot better if you know a lot about that behavior. So that conversation about defining the behaviors associated with the changes that you want, finding the metrics that can be automatically input into the game, finding a way to recognize those behaviors what you want people to do more of, less of, about the same is really tough process still How many of you have the prayers and played the leaf game? Yes on the first, no on the second Yeah so basically you get these releases being more eco- friendly as they were and that’s a game but it’s like kind of suddenly begged into the design of the car. And yes, you need to get the business case up and you have the business model so your business runs. But I think also we know how do we make, how do we make it fun and I argue is that we were really looking as how can we understand and even change the human architecture that underlies the stuff that we are doing, it underlie, it provides, these games are going to provide us these windows into changing how we think, feel and behave, it will create new tools for thought allow us to design, you guys do all design, new tools for thought. And we think about it what we really need to curates, to end Global Warming to bring on conflict resolution to resolve conflict resolution as we need to learn how to a chase wonder, we need a discovery machine. So adding more curiosity when you are surprised to like Google, Google already does this with the Wonder Wheel. We need to be able to add more create a self-motivating task, using understanding, hard fun like challenge and obstacles and goals how that works. We also need to create Empathy Engine so what we would take that next step is like we have got the

property value argument but then how do we create empathy and how do we, what kinds of mechanics increase empathy or what would you do that. And then, finally, we have got been able to create eco-simulations, because James Hoggies has a wonderful book on what games can teach us about learning literacy and he says you master simulation, you master the content. Has anybody played like Sim City? So, after you have played Sim City, I don’t know for me like it was like, I was left till 3 in the morning in the office is the only game that only computer would run then I went home and I drove to work the next day but it was in the surreal state, only a couple of — sleep like wow power lines. Sure, and then the whole world, whole world that had been completely they have been there my entire life was now suddenly new. I come back from playing rock band with my friends, drive across to San Mateo Bridge and I play guitar right and for that, I can literally see all eight lanes are traffic, every car in both directions. So there is something really interesting. We don’t understand what games are doing for us but I think that’s the next generation, that what’s all up to you is to take what we are learning in games, take what you enjoy that games and applying it to these other contexts Well that rolls nicely into – through push it to get some thoughts and questions but not just questions I mean some interaction and other areas that you all would like to ask about the topic but also some particular areas of greater good that we could talk and kind of do gaming at the improv here and talk through how would you do that. And I have got one, it’s a little tangential and that is that machine that I took game engines and made movies using these games is it a possibility as opposed to designing a game specifically or game dynamics specifically around particular goals. Could we take some problems we want to solve and plugged them sort of in the backend into things that happen in Warcraft. I mean if you are trying to solve protein folding problems or logistical problems, could you in fact, sort of program this in without changing what anybody does, what Warcraft were or the topics that three billion hours a week in play. Is there way to solve some problems that happens transparently? Has anybody tried to do anything like that? The answer is may be Controversial I suppose Yeah, the answer is may be, there was a game called Star Wars Galaxies, when we first started thinking about applications in the enterprise and in Star Wars Galaxies, to survive in a game, you have to make stuff. You have to take on a job and you had to make it, market it, sell it, do the whole thing and these were very sophisticated jobs and there was a job called within the doctor category, called Pharmaceutical Manufacturer and we are playing this game and showing this game to a bunch of scientists at Eli Lilly. And in this, who were interested in gaming because they had pain points about collaborative science that were very significant in their development. And in this game, you have to search the galaxy for interesting catalyst for chemical reactions. You had to actually dock molecules and think. So it wasn’t quite the real science but it was so close and all the points in the marketing and the whole wrapper around the game could remain the same if you could actually and they just went to town thinking about a very sophisticated collaborative activity. This is not just, not something, not a simple behavior, this is over signaling amount of time and actually spend some time trying to think about exactly what that would mean and doing a lot of other getting a lot of other advantages in there as well getting low bit of wisdom of crowds involved, the leadership issue is very important if you are working at Lilly and have done it Prosac, you are the only guy that gets stock in the room and all the young scientists will get to talk with the games that who cares what you did last week. So there were some really interesting things that came that. And the games all have I mean Warcraft has a thousand APIs in and out so there is a creative, there is a sand box there for somebody to play and I am glad you mentioned that, to reverse that, not to spend another $100 million building a Warcraft that will do scientific collaboration but actually build that. And so you can go to leadership boot camp in Warcraft, now working for a company so instead of going to the road scores and getting closer there, why don’t this is one guild, this is another guild, and we are going to square it off. And see if you can get the farthest and it periodically at the right moments

will tell you a little bit about leadership and how group dynamics but it’s played so I think it’s a great thought Moderator: Are there some? So let me push it back out here, yes [Audience] Just looking at those two examples I would say you are playing games all the time, you just, they are more inline with your social norms and reality and you don’t create escapism as much. It’s not that you don’t respond to those game mechanics or dynamics. It’s that you are doing them in your own life and you are playing in your own life. That example you gave was great, I mean people who really wanted to develop in school, who want to be recognized, who want to be panels. I mean there is lot of human desires that manifest themselves all the time so yeah Molly Kittle: I think I would add to that in the research that we have done, we have been interviewing players, I have been interviewing players for 20 years. So and one thing that I learned is that the number one reason why people don’ t play games and this is interviewing people in their homes They have perfect access, they have got someone in their home, why are you not playing? And usually, it’s just too addictive. One of my favorite quotes this along this line is I don’t play his kind of games because somebody has to remember to take care of the kids. So it was an interesting point and we are and I have been talking about these for the past three years or so, four years ago in a sense that if you get, if you create a system that unbalances the human, a lot of them are going to reject. And so actually, by just trying to drive your DAUs or the number of hours per week, you can actually do in a long term your business, your brand, your game to service because if they have to pull out it’s often like called Turkey, no, I have to finish my MBA, I am not playing Warcraft anymore. We have had lots of interviews with that and we have had people, people talk about, the people that monetize on Facebook. Those really $900 a month, I mean no, sorry $900 a year, that was the same. That’s still not saying virtual goods like what are you doing and you know, I was at the home and it’s like what are you doing, this is not, we should not be spending $900 But it’s, there is definitely something that unbalances that health of the individual and I really believe that people will, if you provide something that’s entertaining or provide some benefits, they are going to come to you and you really don’t need to design these skinner boxes. In the end it just puts you on a blacklist which you really like the gambling industry Mark Nelson: I am curious why you asked the question because if you are dealing with a game architectural that you have voted on to do something and it’s not working which by the way, the 95% of the people I have talked about our gamification are dealing with exactly that issue. They are like, well we hired programmers and we put the reader board up and so it isn’t pixy dots. You can’t just sprinkle it on something and expect it to work as Gay Dickerman used to say. He is right, it’s a difficult part of challenge to make this work and so we do have new tools here and when they work they are really powerful. But it’s still an art. And it’s becoming a science so we have a time but don’t underestimate mobile handset it’s hard work still to make the alignment between the behavior you are trying to get in the real world and what the tools are that you are going to use to incentivize your — behavior Nicole Lazzaro: An example I would like to share is back in the day when we used to, remember when we used to milk cows instead of clicking on them. There was inherent engagement on the task. You could see if you are on target, the pail would fill with milk, you could talk and help your coworkers. At the end of the day, those pails felt heavy as you carry them back to the barn. All sources of wonderful natural engagement. But something gets lost in transition when we work with virtual and sort of mouse driven. And so there is this interesting opportunity to like really go into

like what make these mechanics much more interesting and part of the real world [Audience] Nicole Lazzaro: Now, you are talking about measurement of effectiveness of the design or of the behavior of the player? [Audience] Nicole Lazzaro: Well, I mean there is a great example like hey you are going – you just put it how many calls I make a day, return on a day and then so you are going to have people calling and hanging it up, hanging it up, just to get the numbers right or the length of call Mark Nelson: So there is a whole menu of things that come into play that when you think about that. And the games are going to work the best in cases where there is quantitative information that can be fed back in multiple time units. But then in a call center there is a lot of stuff. There are moments by moment customer satisfaction surveys that are being input. You could do voice stress analysis, you have got a clock running on call handling duration. You have got points that may be a team is accumulating based on how the team action is doing. One of the greatest things that actually happens in a place like this whenever you have a behavior or a piece of work that is important but it is unrecognizably important because it’s so small like turning the lights out and the glaciers in Antarctica, that’s a long causal chain there. But you can give recognition I mean you can find some metrics so in the call center example, it brings up the issue of what is it exactly that we want people to be doing, what are the behaviors, what could we bring in here that could be automatically assessed. I mean may be you could look at and these are all things that have been done, look at facial expressions. I mentioned analyzing voice so looking at pacing, there is good research that if the pacing of my, if I match my pacing to your pacing in a conversation you will like me more and things like that. So you can find ways to bring these things and just like in the games put them in a dashboard, they are instantly recognized. Well it’s not that you are interfering too much with the task. But the games bring up the point of what is it that we need to be measuring Nicole Lazzaro: The most interesting metric I have seen or that I have been playing with is something [inaudible] which I think is like the net-referral score which is something about how likely you will be to refer a friend or maybe actually measure that behavior, so after the call, how likely is that customer, how many of those customers actually bought again or some of their behavior that might be, because it just does, it links it back to some business goals Mark Nelson: Just to touch a little more on the level of complexity in the task into where you can score a higher complexity stuff. There is interesting work out there, being done by colleagues at NASA and also Nikki [inaudible] and his team at Carnegie Melon, that shows that yeah if you can decompose a task well enough and a whole lot of this comes down to task decomposition, but if you can breakdown a high level, high skill task well enough, you can get really good traction and really good results on that basis. So I’d just point you to that work to look out, if you are looking how to measure [inaudible]? Nicole Lazzaro: Yeah that was intrusive, easy to think about competition, but we forget the Latin groups of that word which really means to come together to better ourselves and getting to by pursuing the same goal. And so a lot of mechanics tend to be wind-loose, but my favorite restaurant in Oakland, one of my favorites is Petros and they pool their tips, great service because at the end of the day, it’ s basically everybody is taking care of everybody [Audience]

I have got a really quick answer to that, because I was just talking to representatives of foreign government two days ago, who were saying, we have been doing everything metrics based and the thing is people just make up metrics to fill in their forms, because they know that they are being rated on whether they are filling the forms, they will have metrics [inaudible] so we know that the metrics are rubbish. Anytime that people have to actually write something down or fill out a from, you are on a wrong track – We made the systems, is that what you are saying? Yeah, but you are now two or three layers away from reality You need some way of just, you need a sensor in the environment that can just track people’s behavior, to just see, did somebody or did somebody not do that. And if they have to think about it, they have to fill out a from, if they have to record someone that they did something you are already on the wrong track Yeah if you simplify the world, you clarify goals, you amplify feedback for things. You also want to suspend consequences. And the more you suspend the consequences, the more playful it is and then you can pull that in the fantasy and that you might want to do for more dangerous stuff, you have stuff that’s a little bit more outside of their box or you have stuff that’s a little bit more far-field. And that might help those kinds of problems make them more fantasy and then that take a stuff that’s little bit more pedestrian and kind of [inaudible] put that more in the real world [Audience] No, I think the answer is there needs to be, there are lot more learning and training games than there are actual work productivity games, because it’s just easier data, that’s the only data we can get to right now. But the real opportunity here is to apply this sensibility to the actual interactions, I mean why allow people to just have fun and have a playful engaging orientation, just for learning and training, so don’t be bored to tears, when they leave the training room, why not actually bring that into the game and say, yeah nice to have you working at our call center, sit down here and start playing, when you get to level 7, we will let you talk to old customers. And when you get to level 14, we will let you run a group or whatever it is. So actually doing it in the work context, I think it’s more of the real advantages and that’s just to redesign of work. For a little bit harder with respect to tying it to the actual metrics, but you are right on right track, its sales force, SAP [inaudible] all of that calls out now that you could actually feed this information in the games and be incredibly influential, we think by bringing that stuff to life We are playing with that blur and with flip, which tells and flips adventure even [inaudible] dimensions where you have got the cell phones working with the Vermont Energy Investment Company and we are designing these [inaudible] real early, but we are doing this AR which means Ultimate Reality or Augmented Reality and you basically can tag and you can do an energy audit, we got a crowd source and energy audit for building. So you can like tag those light bulbs as part of the game, it goes into the database then people can whatever. And then there can be a layer of fantasy. When I do serious games is I recommend that layer of fantasy sort of the optional, so some people can be like you know I don’t really want to be the fancy part of. And then some people can go, they will get dressed up, they will put in the lab coat, they will put on the hat, the funny hats and they will just go have fun for the weekend. And other people will be much more serious about it, but we are allowing our range because not everybody really feels comfortable playing. One thing I should mention about platforms, we have early talked about, but the mobile phone, it’s going to be an amazing, very disruptive force. I don’t know if it’s clear to you, but right now, we have over 5.6 billion mobile phones on the planet, cell phones. And that’s 3.7 billion of cell phone owners. There are more cell phones on this planet today than there are FM radios. It is the most pervasive technology, the communication technology device ever manufactured and it’s gotten there, to me that, in 10 years. Prepare that too like gaming consoles like 1.1, 1.2 billion. Again gaming consoles, handheld consoles, that’ s only the kind of thing from 1975 to today. There maybe 400 million people playing on Facebook, but there are 500 million smart phones and that’s only in three years. So when you think about gaming, and think about building businesses be sure to remember that we are really going to ubiquitous models, where these things are lightweight, they got a camera on and know where you are, there are all kinds of new things, new ways to blend real world into that, into whatever kind of gaming console We have just a challenge. I want to test these people with

something — [Informal Talk] So anyway I think they have a really tough challenge for this group. Okay, gosh we have got lots of tough challenges And then we haven’t done anything on this side, so please [Audience] Yes that’s a very good question. I did know little more about the game in Japan compared to here. But basically the regions we have done, it has been mostly US, we had done some [inaudible] in Korea. But we have not run stage in Japan. I think that there is an interesting, there is customer and interesting social modifier that it does allow you to be social and it does allow, there are some interesting cultural, there are some interesting cultural — that I think factor into what might make things the most interesting. But I need to know a little bit more about the game like what the mechanic is. Yeah talk to me later that would be good [Audience] Right, very good, advanced mechanic is the most products, it’s not really – [Audience] Yeah I am an undergraduate from Stanford actually in [inaudible] and I also took some production here and also some programming courses, so that’s kind of where I am very different. And with serious fund, it definitely badges, we are definitely big part of it. But it’s collection- completion mechanics, it’s also repetition and rhythm and so dancing games, music games, change how I feel, think and behave, so those can be in repetition and rhythm, so setting up a pattern over time and those can be very, you know that can change your mood, that can be very good. And then anything that all games teach and so really giving you something to think about after the play is really important Why a badge works is because it makes fear, like yes I just won that emotion dies down, it goes away, so it’s nice to win a prize, so serious fun is all about what that prize is and it could be a mental prize, it can be all kinds of things, it doesn’t – [Audience] Exactly, I think one of the things you want to build in there is just a research layer where you can actually profile individual players and run constant [inaudible] to see who responds to what. And then you get a much quicker, much better sense of, is a bigger badge going to work for this person, is something more colorful work for that person, something more personal work for this person? And you also get a much better sense of what’s driving individual people, which of the different dimensions that people play games for is the reason that that player was playing the game And I don’t want to fail in my task here, so let’s make sure. I always sweep around and I see at least these three, so let’s start here [Audience] That was different definition, let’s use games, do thing people don’t want to do You can’t do that, and it’s taking the portfolio ingredients that we have all talked about. First of all, it’s understanding what is the behavior that you want changed, what are the motivations, intrinsic and extrinsic associated with those behaviors? Why is it hard? What do you want people to do? How much is an individual experience versus a social experience? I mean the badge may only work if I can show it to my friends. I don’t care about the badge, but if I show it to my friends, it’s really, I think it would work in there. In fact, we have got two or three projects within this large game grant project at Stanford, it’s looking at transportation and [inaudible]. There is an engineer on campus [inaudible] that has done exactly the gamification idea that you mentioned for transportation in India with great success We had a pilot for drivers challenge, mountains you have run by [inaudible] and we just said, hey let’s just photos of what you are doing, put a tag for the game on Twitter. We scrape

them, we put them up on a website and it adds some fun to the game, there are many more they are doing, right, recommend looking for work [Inaudible] Just also looking at what is the key reason that they don’t want to do in the first place in addressing that. I think car pooling is a great example because there are so many emotional tie-ins. The car is our identity. How do you use the identity, the American identity, how do you create the same kind of, use the word compulsion that we now have to recycle, there is not a place to recycle, I feel like something is wrong, because I have been trained overtime and it’s cultural, it’s social, you feel social discussed in the technical, it’s “throwing something away” in the trash, which should be recycled eventually tip over and [inaudible] [Audience] Yes, this is the red team, this is the blue team, I wonder it’s going to have to volunteer Now that would be yea, and that’s — And executing that with a lot more style than I just mentioned, but that’s one way to do it, providing transparency for that, providing virtual recognition for that, creating ways in which you can instantiate the success, not the failure that doesn’t work as well, but the success of the two teams. I mean just all these different ingredients, there are specific examples. So it’s like health carrier, large healthcare plan, it’s using game mechanics to do employee volunteer right now with success I’d just think of a big whiteboard Draw a line down the center and on one hand, put social emotions involved with volunteering, so generously, gratitude. The feeling of elevation you see some human [inaudible]. And on the other half of the board, put mechanics, these are things you can do in a game of World of Warcraft, you get a house pack and If I give it to you, I will generous, you feel gratitude, you might feel elevation same here [inaudible] and later in the game, you can give it back to me or something like that and then those emotions kind of roll through the game. So you want to think on that other side like what kinds of actions would then get us to those different emotional states I am reading a book right now called Zilch by Nancy Lublin that has lessons from that non-profit world for profit world. And how do motivate people in the context where you don’t have in fact money and power. They are volunteers and you need to motivate them and talk about how do you bring nonprofit activities into for-profit and how do get feel to that, it’s interesting, I am enjoying it, it’s an interesting book and it’s not exactly your point, but it is lot of the same, how do you motivate people to do things where it’s not about tying their pay to it [Audience] For games, one of the [inaudible] on Nintendo DS, what’s really interesting about that particular game is you play, basically it’s almost like Flash -but a little more — you write down the multiplication, got old number game and stuff like that What’s fascinating about that design and I think it’s the two things, one is that there is a social UI, there is a little character that says, yeah good job or whatever. But then the other thing is that you can only, you do three of the challenges, you will actually get a little stamp, you put on that calendar, like yes I got a stamp, you get a designed stamp, you get places stamp. But if you play that challenge a second time in that day, you score, but you don’ t get credit. And so to level up in that game, you have to come back, it rewards you for coming back everyday. And so just by designing that kind of design over time then that’s what builds a habit, so it’s not like I play [inaudible] for five hours and I leveled that you actually won’t – that won’t do as much as doing 15 minutes everyday Because there is customer of ours HopeLab who is amazing Oh yeah they are doing some great stuff Yeah Zamzi is a product for kids who are having weight problems and it actually tracks their activity level during the day and at night, they plug that, put that in and they get to use the [inaudible] during the day for all of their activities to interact socially, so really tying in what kids want to do with what they might not be inclined to do to create this feedback loop and then train them over time, I have seen 30% increase in activities for kids on those programs One area that I think is going to be really bright for a lot

of commercial activity and startup activity and that is the general area of compliance you know 25% to 40% of prescriptions that are written are not filled or medicines not taken properly on time, this is a huge issue perhaps [overlapping] one of the most important issues a lot of game mechanics can be applied to that if executed well And if you apply to that, you want to look at that core word “compliance.” I mean it’s like I am telling you what to do, we need to be compliant of our rules. That’s not game thinking, that’s not very playful. So think about you will start there and then the design your game from that, it’s not comply, we want to you know see [inaudible]you must do this, but do something that makes it, because we were saying no don’t want to, like don’t want to fit in that box If you are starting a company, say that we are compliant Yeah, so actually funding [Informal Talk] I think we are out of time, I am going to ask one, luxury I guess of asking of one last question and that is 20 years down the road, we’ll’ be sitting here talking about set of tools called the game dynamics or will this be so integrated into the fabric of every thing we do, there it will just be part of it, it won’t be a separate tool box, it will just be part of the fundamental place we start the ladder There is not question in my mind. Like I said earlier is that games [inaudible] in for the 21 century and games are really taking interface designs to that next, interaction designs to the next level. The stuff that we think and learn about as you know – UI design, all of that’s going to be taken by next level just like you know film introduced two technologies, the frame for attention and a cut to compress time to increase emotional engagement, well games out of choice. And we have had 35 years of inventing this language of games just like there is a language of cinema. We are not done yet with the language of games, but it’s going to go right into interaction designing and you are not going to see it as a separate discipline Well I’d like to thank all of you for your attention and your questions and Molly, Nicole, Mark, Byron thanks for your time and thoughts, it’s fascinating and I hope you all do good work in this area, great