hi this is Bob Samuels founder of techconnectr techconnectr is a transparent marketplace and campaign management platform a best-of-breed b2b lead generation solutions we’ve partnered with serious decisions and the b2b MX to bring you wisdom from leading account based marketing thought leaders to that end I would like to introduce you to Matt Heinz president of Heinz marketing and one of the smartest marketers I know Matt it’s a pleasure to speak with you how are you today hey I’m great man how are you excellent it’s a beautiful day it’s a beautiful time of year happy new year so far so good I can’t believe we’re already as we record this it’s already late January I feel like we were just watching the Rose Bowl and here we are already you know bumping up against Valentine’s Day it’s nuts it’s amazing it’s amazing so ABM I’m still a hot topic you know the coordination between sales and marketing is really interesting to me and people overlook it they either take it for granted or they think they can’t influence it but it’s got to be a huge part of the whole determination of whether the projects are successful or not well certainly comes up a lot I may think you know we’ve gotten to the point now where everybody is talking about ABM whether they understand what it is or not and people have different different ranges of definitions for what it is some people think a very narrow definition some people basically just apply ABM to anything that has to do with enterprise marketing you know but I think the I’ve always thought if you’re doing sales and marketing together well when you’re doing named account marketing well it includes the far greater level of integration between sales and marketing at every stage of the pipeline not just when leads are handed off or not just when you’re supporting you know the sales process from a sales enablement standpoint it also includes a much more active consideration of the buying committee right which means not just knowing who those members of the buying are but managing them separately communicating with them you know with segments and messages but then understanding where are the cohorts within those buying committees where are the groups of people that either agree already or don’t agree but you need the beauty as a seller need to build consensus amongst them and that is a difficult thing to do and to execute but that is a key part of where a lot of companies are seeing some very significant increases in results both philosophy of deals as well as conversion rates of named accounts when they’re doing it well excellent so by the way before I go too far I forgot it I didn’t introduce you as well as I should have so can you give me a little bit of a a little bit of background about who you are where you been what perspective you come from with this whole sure sure sure so I’m Matt Heinz started Heinz marketing a little over 11 years ago and you know we focused purely on helping b2b companies build more predictable scalable pipelines so we work with marketing organizations to think about how am I going to deliver revenue impact for the organization do that in a consistent way do that in a profitable way and do that in a way that can scale as the needs and goals of the organization grow as well beautiful so getting back to what you were saying before about coordination so it seems like I’m picturing in a bowtie sort of a picture were there’s a lot of people that need to be coordinated with on the on the on the client your client side including the sales and marketing and all of the key stakeholders there and then there’s key stakeholders on their prospect side there’s lots of them too yeah and I think that you know oftentimes and we build lists of targets for you know our target organizations and we just throw them into campaigns and treat them as in as individuals right so you’ll have this named account you’re trying to reach and you’ll have maybe six seven people there and you’re setting in the same message and you’re not doing anything to coordinate behavior across all of them so first of all if you’re talking to a CFO versus a CTO versus you know potentially a system analyst right someone further down the organization they all work for the same company they may have they may all ultimately agree that they need your solution to solve something but they’re very different in terms of their approaches they’re different in terms of the problems they solve our problems they’re addressing at least so having a segmented way of talking to them is first and foremost but I think also understanding how to communicate amongst those cohorts of people within that organization is is critical and thinking about like what they have in common thinking about the message you’re gonna put in front of them that’s that relates to all of them and then execution around that how are you going to execute in a way that actually gets them to talk to each other about that topic again easier said than done that’s super important so ask you

as far as reaching out to the the prospects do you recommend going real high going real low and between all of the above I guess it’s not an or thing it’s really a whole coordinated effort it really is I mean I think you know in many cases you know you’ll have people or lower in the organization that not only feel more acutely the pain of what’s wrong or the pain of what’s not working but in most organizations it isn’t you know it may be the CTO that is making the final decision but she’s usually looking to her team to go and bring her ideas to bring her solutions to identify the problem and then identify solution so you know a lot of people say well if you’re selling into enterprise you need to start at the top and find the you know most important person well that eventually you need to be able to have that conversation but you may actually build internal momentum and consensus by starting with people that will actually pick up the phone people that will actually are replying to your email and people actually who acutely feel the problem that you can potentially solve right so I guess really the goal is gonna be to try to get someone who will be a champion and odds are it’s gonna be down low but if you’ve got someone up top that can be a champion that’s pretty cool well every organization you’re selling into is gonna have a different culture right I mean some are going to be very differential to people that are higher than they are every organization selling shoes is gonna have its own politics it’s gonna have someone you know there may be someone junior the organization who just quite frankly is not c-level material it’s been in the company for 20 years and everybody listens to because they know where all the skeletons are buried and so I mean as seller first you have to understand like whether or not that company has a big enough problem to solve right just because they’re in health care just because you sell a healthcare solution doesn’t mean every health care company is your prospect so understanding the context into which you are selling the attributes and characteristics of a of a company that needs you that’s really important as a starting point but then to find yes you’re going to define that champion to find that person that’s willing to not only tell you how decisions are made and how buying happens in the organization but also guide you to the other people they’re gonna be key to the buying committee to build consensus I mean you can you can call an email all day long just you know by blunt-force trama get head against the wall or you can find whoever that is in the organization who’s willing to do that for you one of the members of the buying committee that many people ignore or don’t even think about with enterprise is you know the executive assistant for a decision maker a lot of people treat the executive system as a gatekeeper but oftentimes he or she is actually a catalyst like their job is to is to is to be a gatekeeper of the distractions to that individual and if you’re coming with something that actually solves a core problem you could have them be the champion you can have them be the hero of bringing a great idea back to the boss very good so what you brought a good point about they have to have a problem that you’re gonna be able to solve them how can you figure out if they have the problem what kind of problem they have well I think there’s a couple things one I mean you could certainly ask too I think if if there are sometimes external signs or signals or trigger events that indicate that someone is exploring something like let’s use account based marketing as an example right I mean oftentimes you know we will I’ve got alerts set up and LinkedIn that tell me when anyone on LinkedIn in particular filters joins an ABM group on LinkedIn now maybe I’m LinkedIn groups I don’t think are very well managed they’re not great tools to participate in but if someone joins an ABM group that is a sign that they’re thinking about ABM it’s a sign that somehow they’re either starting it or thinking about it or getting into it and want support from other so that’s a signal that I can key in on right if someone says it joins that group I can say wow you know here’s a workbook we put together to help people get started on a VMware here’s here’s a blog post highlighting reasons why many ABM programs stall or fail right so I can I can go back and I can engage people with something of interest and not everyone is gonna be you know in that in that context but I think you’re gonna find a lot more efficiency and a lot higher conversion rate when you can use those kind of trigger events I think it’s brilliant and also gives you something to talk about you know at least they know ABM and and then the context of the article and the group or whatever maybe more specifics or something to talk about yep brilliant as far as so some of the things that came up since we last talked so so gdpr is a big thing that people have to deal with it’s it’s a it’s something that required CCPA California and Boston and so for Massachusetts are all coming off board – what are you seeing as far as the challenges or things that well I

think for two things one I think it just this just reinforces why it’s important for any company any brand to really invest in the the technology stack behind their marketing programs I mean you can no longer get away with just having you know good emails and good value-added practices integrating your system so you have sort of one common view of the customer and prospect I mean that is just now it’s it’s gone from being a good best practice to being table stakes if you don’t want to get sued right but I think that what’s great about gdpr and CCPA is that we these are not these are not in conflict with just the way you should be treating your customers at all in the first place right yes you know it’s gonna require some work to get up to that level because our systems maybe in general and in the in and out of the box don’t necessarily talk to each other but you know if you are creating value for your prospects if you’re creating value in respecting the time and sort of interest of your prospects these regulations should not be a problem they’re just reinforcing and and separating you with your good practices from those that really don’t want to bother with computed practices so I you know I think overall it’s a very good thing I think overall it’s going to increase engagement rates from the prospects that matter for the prospects that want to hear from you and that’s gonna be that’s gonna be a benefit to companies that embrace it necessary evil it’s actually something that’s useful it helps weed out some of the bad players and and and it helps you get in front of people that really really are interested in hearing their message which is all you want anyway absolutely makes sense and it and it makes sense from both sides because everybody’s a consumer too and you can appreciate the controls there so what have you seen and I think we’d spoke how many months ago but what’s what’s hot out there what are you seeing that’s interesting as far as methods as far as people as far as technology well I I think we’re finally getting to a point where AI is becoming sort of more practical for you know an early adopter marketer I think the idea of using artificial intelligence to identify signals has been around for a while but I think we’re now finally getting that tool and where you can say okay if I see this signal here’s how it gets integrated in my systems here’s where it tells me what to do next so I feel like artificial intelligence is gonna play a really big role for marketers over the next you know 12 to 24 months as a means of focusing on quality versus quantity you know doing less of sending every email to everybody and hoping someone responds and more getting the right email to the right person at the right time and not having to manually set all that up and do the manual segmentation the the other piece that it doesn’t require technology at all it’s just a greater alignment between sales and marketing I think that you know it’s historically we’ve seen the sales funnel split horizontally through the middle where some marketing owns the top of the funnel and sales owns the bottom and just you know leads get thrown over the wall and collateral occasionally I think the most the most successful the most efficient sales and marketing teams today look at that funnel actually split it vertically with a diagonal bent we’re marketing owns maybe the majority of the top of the funnel sales may own the majority bottom but there are roles and responsibilities for both groups at every stage and so you’re in so instead of having sort of disjointed strategies an overlap of responsibilities in the middle you have a more integrated a more thoughtful approach to prospects that creates consistency of the message they’re seeing at the right place in the buying journey and so especially when you’re doing those named account selling especially in that ABM kind of context to be able to drive that kind of integration is just critical and it’s it to make that even to make even the further point around that when you’ve got a marketing organization it isn’t defining its value based on the number of Form fills they get but defining its value based on what kind of marketing influence can happen on closed deals I’ve seen some companies where you know they’re focused on such small mark segments of the market the marketing team focus is more of their energy on sales enablement than they do lead gen like lead gen is a secondary goal to you know influencing deal velocity and conversion rate and so I you know that may be an extreme example but I think that mentality especially coming from marketing but for sales and marketing teams working together is really critical so when you say sales enablement what do you mean but I mean everybody to me everybody’s either in sales or in sales enablement sure I mean I can a brought in a broad definition you could say well if I’m generating leads that’s enabling sales to do their thing and so sure I look at sales enablement I think what am i doing to increase the efficiency of my sales organization and what am i doing to increase the efficacy of my sales organization so put another way what percent of my sales teams time is spent actively selling what am i doing to put

you know process and content and tools in front of my sales team to help them spend more time selling and then in that time they are selling what am i doing to make sure they as effective as possible right so make sure that they’re not just you know hey I’m actively selling but I’m selling to the wrong person I’m selling with the wrong message I don’t have a good follow up to maintain the momentum that I had from the trade show last week so you know sales enablement can mean a lot of things and I think you could clearly put a lot of you know marketing’s activity in terms of driving pipeline into that bucket so maybe it becomes so large of a definition that’s not really very useful so instead of that I would just say listen as a marketer what are you doing where are you focusing that has an endgame of a result you can buy a beer with right because if all you’re doing is focusing on lead volume for lis volumes sake if all you’re doing is creating web traffic hoping that that converts into sales or leads somewhere that’s not as effective as efficient as you could be right so the so the the helping the sales enablement could be in terms of having some sales materials some training maybe maybe maybe getting like I said getting getting the right leads in there that the the focused leads that the salespeople can target and so forth so whatever it takes yep love them be more efficient and more effective and it seems to make sense that marketing should report to sales you think so I mean they they have the same goal at the end of the day I would hope and it just seems to make sense well you know I could argue that you know there are segments of the finance team that whose goal is to facilitate sales so like a procurement department or a legal department who’s reviewing contracts is certainly there to support sales goal as well but they don’t necessarily report it as sales I think the reporting structure things like reporting structure things like having service level agreements between sales and marketing like those those become forcing functions when you don’t already have the culture that needs to exist to drive results so if you’ve got a CMO that understands that revenue revenue outcome is what’s most important right if it doesn’t mean that sales is subservience of marketing or vice versa just means we’re all in it for the same reasons and so you know if we’re saying well then all these groups need to report the sales what we’re really doing is we’re saying well because sales is there when the they’ll get signed then they own everything and that’s not true so I think that more important than work structure more important than having legal contracts between departments is having the culture in place that already supports a revenue centric environment that allows people to put their egos aside that in many cases you know you know so it allows you to take the idea of attribution the saying like let’s let’s ignore attribution for a minute let’s assume that all of these deals are gonna require sales and marketing to get done we don’t really care if you know sales swooped in at the last minute and got the deal down we don’t really care that you know marketing provided 40 percent or 45 percent attribution on the deal get the deal done it’s gonna take all of us to do it right and and to your point about keeping them separate they are separate skill sets yeah and I think that’s where you know I think when you sometimes you see you know inside sales teams reporting in to marketing and marketing considering a PDR function as a lead development phone like theoretically that’s a really good idea in practice you now have marketers managing sales people and that is a very different management skill you now have a sales team that is no longer part of the sales organization that is no longer has a direct implicit career path that may not be getting the sales training that they should be if they weren’t part of the sales team so that’s the idea breaks down and so if I don’t have to own as a marketer I don’t have to own the BDR team or this inside sales team if I’ve got agreement with sales on what is a good lead and when we generate a good lead what does that mean and when do the BD RS follow up with it and how do they follow up with that I mean that’s not something you’re going to solve with a 30-minute meeting it’s not that let me you’re gonna solve by writing up a playbook and handing it off to your sales team and saying please follow this so there’s a huge cultural element to making that work and I don’t think short term things like you know SLA or well we’ll just have marketing on the team our long term are in the long term interest of Musk the key like you said the the the goals need to be things that you can buy a beer with so you can’t buy a beer with a sales opportunity although that’s as far as you can go as far as marketing goes no I think marketing I I’ve seen organizations where let’s say it’s the last let’s say it’s the last week of the quarter and marketing is where the sales team is just grinding it out trying to close deals and let’s say there’s one deal that’s gonna make or break the quarter like the last few days of the quarter and this one deal it’s so close and you got one member of the buying

committee who just isn’t quite comfortable yet saying yes so why wouldn’t marketing be willing to step back and create content for an audience of one in that context right like the most inefficient thing you could do as a traditional content marketer who’s all about clicks and impressions and views what if you got viewership for one person and that message customized to them got the deal done like that’s that may be one of the most efficient things marketing and do at least in that day or that week so I think marketing can have an impact through the entire fall we’re not even talking about customer success here right like and I think you know you could argue in a mature company sales is a lagging indicator of great customer success so what are we doing as marketers to leverage that right to increase leaves to increase referrals to increase throughput to help justify the decisioning increase confidence from those late stage prospects that they’re making a good decision that’s a good point and like you said the customers and the land and expand and they’re growing those I keep forgetting about that but that’s that’s it that’s even more efficient more effective yeah needs there so the one-to-one marketing I would think would fall into sales but it doesn’t necessarily have to no no I I and I think you know a look at these enterprise deals and you know before I mean we talked into think about sales process and you think about your big complex deal in the first stage of something around loosening the status quo or you know qual find the problem or helping to understand help the prospect understand the problem they do or don’t know that they have that maybe the first like official part of the buying process but if that’s stage one then stage zero is just getting their attention it’s just getting their attention and earning some level of engagement and that could just be based on content that could be based on the fact that I invited you to you know a cocktail reception at the industry conference next month where we didn’t talk about work but you just got to know us and so now we’re not just a name and an anonymous email now we’re a guy that you know we’re we’re two guys that like college football you know and so I think that there’s there’s a whole level of support that that initial engagement can have that can be sales driven and then you have a I mean you know according to Gartner only three to four percent of companies in any industry are actively buying forty six percent are poised fifty percent aren’t worth your time at all so by you know by the math if you get a room of prospects together most of them are not gonna be ready to buy so the sales team may actually sort of work on warming up the relationship that lay may then nurtured by marketing for a period of time until they’re actively ready to buy again so I I think this is another reason why I think that that integration between sales and marketing at every stage especially for more complex sales is so so important there’s no there’s no one specific handoff there’s a back and forth potentially yeah I mean there’s no it’d be so much easier look it if we could actually manage leads in a linear one-directional way that would be easier if b2b buyers would actually make decisions based on purely business and logical reasons this would all be easier but the world is way messier than that one person making the buying decision and everything it’s a very complex thing but you still I would think you’d still need I buy the you need to have sales which is the own thing buyer buy a beer with as a goal for for marketing but you need interrupts right you need to have somehow have measurements and rewards I would think for all those important things along the way into a sale especially with the long you know six twelve month sales cycle ya know I think there’s a difference between measuring marketing’s impact on revenue and measuring how effective the marketing is in that point in time right so I think you know if you can separate for example your functional dashboard from your impact dashboard you know if you can if you’re do using email for example as a component of your marketing like getting better open rates and click rates is important if you’re gonna use the channel might as well make it more effective but if you go to the board meeting and you report on opens and clicks of emails they’re gonna think that’s what you prioritize I think that’s what you care about so there’s a time and a place for all those metrics like you’re absolutely right like you have to you still have to make your marketing better but I would argue that those metrics tend to be more of an inside the marketing team scorecard first or something you want to take of them in your team universes we won’t take beating yep that’s we’ll take him what are you seeing as far as lead generation efforts as far as getting the top of the funnel filled with net name names yeah I mean obviously that’s still for a lot of companies that’s still a huge part of their marketing efforts I you know I think that it is still important though even though you could consider like you know getting someone aware of your business or getting them to even sort of download a white paper you know two things to keep in mind it’s not just about sending out emails or like

point-in-time random acts of marketing to get to a lead to get to a warm lead someone that will respond to you it’s usually not an email or a search ad it’s usually still a body of work that you’re putting in front of someone to get them willing to you know engage and then once you engage how you follow up with that is critical if you’ve got if you generate a whitepaper lead which may not be someone that sales ready but at least like there’s probably a reason why they were interested that white paper if you if your sales team follows up and says well thanks for downloading the white paper would you like to see a demo like that’s good not gonna get a very good a response but if you have a sales team that’s willing to say like why did you download that white paper what about that is interesting like what’s going on in your business that made that prescient right now that’s a much more interesting conversation to have so yeah I mean generating leads is a critical part of most organizations we work with but if you treat that just as well let’s send out emails and forget people to fill out forms that usually is not something that is very sustainable so it should be more than just a single kind of a outreach but to more of a whole story to tell and a whole whole flow or a whole moving moving people along the process I guess you got it so and and these are my world you can get lots of different flavors of Leadgen you can get just data which is just people that are the right company size industry job function do you or whatever and then you’ve got your MQ l’s which are people that have raised their hand like you said shown some interest in the topic that they’re not I suggested in your product or your company but you know the topics that so that’s a start and then deeper in the funnel where there’s some more verification that they have a pain maybe and they’re the right person and maybe it’s the right timing so each time you go deeper in the funnel with more specifics including you know you’re the right person do you have a project now within how much time each each point is more expensive and so is it worthwhile or you spend less money and get the the volume and work people through yourself different ways they cut it I guess there is there is and I mean one of the things you sort of bring up there is that you know I think traditionally we think of a lead as someone that filled out a form someone that requested something why couldn’t it lead be someone that you observe has a need that you can follow up I gave the example earlier about people who joined the ABM groups right I don’t have to wait for them to fill out a form for me to engage with them like I could reach out and say hey you know you look like someone who’s interested in ABM can I offer you something that might help you along the way you know I think you it’s especially important if you’re gonna use that strategy that you’ve got something of value you’ve got something that people might otherwise have paid for right to be able to sort of you know get them engaged because if you call and say hey I saw your ABM you know group page I’d like to sell you some maybe I’m software right I mean that’s creepy in any context I think but I think if you can find people that have interest find people based on those trigger events and buying signals elsewhere you can get a solid stream of leads without worrying about people filling out forms it sounds like you’re one of those old-school people that likes to be able to give people something of value before you ask them dying art Bob but it’s super important I think you know when we work with inside sales teams oftentimes I will say okay like let’s assume that there are two rules and I want you to just these may or may not be your rules but I want you to think about what you would do differently than what you’re doing today if they were in fact true the first one is the first conversation you have with the prospect you’re not allowed to talk about your product or service you can’t talk about your company or what you sell and if they ask the direct question then fine you can answer it but otherwise if those things were off the table what would you talk about what questions would you ask like what would you do in that converse and secondarily when the prospect hangs up the phone after that first call what did you share what did you offer what did you give them that got them to lean back in their chair and say wow that was that was really great I would have paid for that I would have paid for that information or that insight and I would spend more time with this company or this individual the next time they call the next time I need ever need because I believe I get something else valuable again yeah that’s quite a bit different than what I see where you’ve only got 30 seconds 45 seconds to be able to make your pitch and you spew as much as you can about the about the company and product as possible hoping something sticks well look I mean you give if you do enough volume if you make enough calls if you do enough activity you’re gonna find some prospects but you worst case you run the risk of going scorched earth and creating such a bad reputation with all the rest of the prospects that they won’t talk to you the next time but I think also you don’t have to share everything in the first message I mean like you know just

because you’ve got someone’s attention doesn’t mean you have to tell them the whole story let’s assume your elevator pitch your elevator ride is not 90 storeys tall let’s sue its – let’s assume they’re just on to the next level what are you going to say that gets them to say walk with me and tell me more like it’s not about the whole stories about the beginning of the story it’s earning someone’s attention that’s why I keep they mentioned before like this is not about your one chance this is a body of work what you share now has to compel the prospect to want to spend more time with you later today tomorrow next week’s next month and the more clearly you can articulate your connection and your insights and your content with problems they have with them being able to see the impact that can have for themselves in their work or is their business the more they’re gonna prioritize spending time with you so it’s really that second the first contact is really enabling that second contact to happen and that’s when you have the chance to get more detailed into your your problem fix or solutions well I’ve seen I’ve seen prospects you know literally on the phone and instead of in when someone says hey listen I want to be respectful your time I know we’ve only got five minutes left I’ve heard prosper you know with my and say no no this is this is not what I expected this is really valuable I’m canceling the next meetings I don’t I want to keep going right so look we’ve all got the same amount of time every day and you know whether you know sometimes some of us are more intentional at than not but you know we’re prioritizing what’s in front of us we’re prioritizing what’s gonna make us smarter and better and so if you think your next call is better than spending more time with someone learning about a problem then you’re gonna take that call but you know if you if you all of a sudden realize they’ve always talked about this is sort of the challenging under the loosening of the status quo if you realize after twenty five minutes that you actually have a problem you didn’t know that you had or maybe you knew you had the problem but you had not really quantified its urgency to be solved like I just introduced new information to you that you may actually want to follow up with now so that’s the best compliment probably is hey I’ve got a little more time let’s keep going absolutely now it’s great beautiful so I appreciate your time so any other words of wisdom because I think I want to be conscious of your time and it Wales this time yeah no I think that I’ll go back to one of the comments I made sort of in the middle of the session here is the issue of culture right I mean to create a culture where the organization thinks about revenue impact of their work a culture where sales and marketing worry less about attribution and impact and score cards and more about what it takes to together as a cross functional unit create that body of work that compels prospects to authentically want to engage with them you know I think you can build all the best you know lead routing structures you can build SQL BtoB ql definitions all you want but if you don’t address and improve the culture that that is being in what that is being executed within your forget you’re not you’re not going to be able to achieve sustainable repeatable predictable results beautiful thank you for Matt I appreciate it it’s always a pleasure thank you for your time good man I appreciate this thank you Cheers