Welcome to a conversation with indeed one of the greatest legends of psychological science. Although a woman came up to Dr. Milner earlier and said, “Oh, it is such an honor to meet you You’re a legend in our field,” and she said, “Well, sometimes legends are disappointing.” I want you to know, in my conversations with her over the last couple of days, she is not disappointing Brenda Milner is in fact one of our greatest psychological scientists, and she has been practicing this for more than 60 years. She is 93 years old and received her undergraduate degree in 1939 at the University of Cambridge, just around the time of what the English called “that little problem with the Germans” was about to begin. She’s been doing important research on the brain long before today’s sophisticated technology. She got her PhD with Donald Hebb at McGill University in 1952, and had joined Wilder Penfield at the Montreal Neurological Institute in 1950 where she eventually became professor of psychology with joint appointments in the psychology department at McGill as well Her life work has greatly expanded our understanding of the brain in particularly important areas of memory and language. Her most famous work, of course, known to generations of students and researchers was with the man known to us all as H.M. who had had most of his temporal lobe removed in order to control his very severe epilepsy. Although the surgery was successful in controlling his seizures, it left him with anterograde amnesia. And it was Dr. Milner’s experiments with him that began a deep understanding of the parts of the brain involved in memory functioning Dr. Milner has, of course, been honored many times for her contributions to psychological science. APS, of course, gave her its William James Award. Recently, she received the Pearl Meister Greengard Prize for her work in cognitive neurosciences – plural – and human memory, and the National Academy of Sciences award in the neurosciences. But perhaps we should all join in a little rendering of O Canada because one of my favorite notes about her is that she has received Quebec’s highest civilian honor, a grand officer of the National Order of Quebec, and the Canadian government has made her a companion of the Order of Canada Canada is a country that truly honors its scientists, including its psychological scientists So Dr. Milner, we salute you Brenda Milner: Thank you Carol Tavris: So I, of course, am always interested in beginnings, and you at 93 have had very interesting history of nearly a century of extraordinary change in this field. So will you begin by telling us something of your family, your parents, how you became interested in science? Such an unusual interest for young women in your generation Brenda Milner: Well, I have no science in my background. My parents were both musicians My father was a musical critique on the Manchester Guardian, which is now The Guardian newspaper as you probably know it. He was a pianist My mother went to him for singing lessons She was 23 years younger than he was. So my first years were sort of homeschooled, if you like, because he was at home in the mornings having written his critique of the opera, whatever, the night before. So I learned a little German early which was, you know, Manchester was a big musical city then. He said all his best friends were interned at that point It’s interesting he’s had a little trouble with the Germans later. We had little trouble with the Germans then, too, when I was born I really should go back to my first year of

life because some people are interested in this and I, looking back, am quite interested in it. My mother and I both contracted the famous Spanish flu. I was born in 1918. That was when there was this huge epidemic and it affected — it didn’t affect so much the old people, and my father didn’t catch it But my mother had it. She was 34. I was six months old and I had it. And we both survived and into our 90s. My mother lived to be 95 So I think that I must have been very grateful to her for my genes. That’s my immune system to date, who knows So I did an awful lots of Shakespeare, a little German, a little French at those first seven or eight years. Then my father died and I went to Withington Girls’ School which is a very good school to this day. It’s really thriving. It was an all-girls school and that’s where I stayed. This is where I developed this great love for mathematics and physics I didn’t do any biology. It was physics and mathematics and also, of course, Latin. But then my Latin teacher left. People had to leave when they got married then, and so all the most attractive teachers were getting married and leaving. So that was quite a frustration Anyway, I had a little battle with my headmistress because my heart was set. I had to get scholarships anyway. You see, we had no money and I had to get scholarships. It was a very competitive world, and I set my heart on Cambridge for all sorts of reasons. The civil war in the past, all sorts of historic reasons why I preferred Cambridge to Oxford. Of course, Oxford in those days was the place you went to in the arts, and languages, and literature, and humanities. Cambridge was the place you went to in the science. Nowadays, it’s much more mixed. Just a little bit of that So I wanted to do maths and I wanted to go to Cambridge, and my school wanted me to go to Oxford and do languages. They said, “It’s much easier for you, you’ve got a talent for languages. You’re going to find it hard in –” I said I wanted to go to Cambridge, and I managed. Goodness knows how I managed to get a Manchester City scholarship and went to Cambridge for mathematics in college. There were only 400 women allowed in Cambridge across the three years in all subjects at that time, so I was competing with girls, right? Then I found myself in Cambridge and I discovered I’m a realist. Fortunately, they sent us to the math class for the next year to give us an idea of what the second year math would be like. I realized that math is not just pure reasoning, so I considered myself – I probably still do – very logical reasoning individual or human being But there’s more to it. You have to be perceptually skilled in mathematics and higher algebra When you look at something in front of you and you have to think about it, you have to be able to organize it visually. I’m really not very good perceptually and it really hit me, and I thought this is not — I better get out of this field while the going is good So at the end of the first year I passed my exams, but at the end of the first year – there’s no glory about it – I decided to have to get out of math. Then I thought, well, I still want to do this logical thing, so why not philosophy? Then the older students at my college came to me and they said, Brenda, don’t you have to earn your living? Of course, I have to earn my living. Nobody earns their living in philosophy. But then – and this was interesting – in those days, this was in the ’30s, the experimental psychology at the Cambridge Department is experimental psychology and my degree then is on experimental. But psychology and philosophy and ethics, I think, were grouped together as moral sciences. Now psychology is in the natural sciences, but in those days it was in the moral sciences. So the people were trying to advise me, they said, well, you can’t earn a living in philosophy but why not try psychology and you could be a factory inspector or something I didn’t know anything about psychology, and Prof. Bartlett, the famous Bartlett who did work on memory as you probably all know, he was the head of the department. His wife was also a very good psychologist and she was the director of studies in my college. She said to me, “Well, suppose you read this over the summer holidays?” And she gave me a great big encyclopedia of experimental psychology. It was really like that, the early Murchison book. I took it home to Manchester on the train and I studied it diligently over the summer Then I came back and that was really amazing I suddenly found that I was in a field. I

had no idea that I would turn out to be a good observer, and this is an interesting thing, you know. I believe that the things that come easily to you, you assume come easily to everybody and you don’t particularly value them. The things that you really have to work out and struggle, like I did in my mathematics, you think that is really something worth doing So I thought I was very good at noticing odd quirks of behavior in people or in animals, and then I would want to know how to measure it and how to investigate it That’s exactly what an experimental psychologist is just trained to do and what medical people are not. You really notice that difference with neurology. They know a lot of things that we don’t know, but they don’t really know how to test their patients. It’s very strange. Well, I’m exaggerating. They’re learning But this to me came naturally, and so I just thought everybody was a good observer. It’s so obvious. But it’s not true. Anyway, it suited me. I was very happy in doing psychology and it went very well and I did very well So when I graduated, I got a scholarship from my college to do another two years as a graduate student you’d call it here. But then in 1939 the war broke out I think I’ve exhausted your question. You’ve seen how I got there. Except to tell you one other thing which is important, which is that I didn’t lose my fidelity to the French language I have a way of thinking, well, I’m going to show them. They thought that by giving up the humanities and going off into science, you know, that that was it. But I think you can continue. That was another reason for staying in science. Once you give up science, you can’t do it on your own. But you can keep up your French, and I had kept up my French This is important for my future, but I did it for pleasure. I kept up the French all through doing mathematics and doing psychology I read books for pleasure only, you know, French novels, French literature. Not science, but I read French. I wasn’t talking it and I never went to Paris. I had no money. During the war nobody went to Paris. But I was studying French, and that’s important also Carol Tavris: But, look, as you’re studying experimental psychology and mathematics and so forth, this was not considered unusual for a woman? You got support from teachers or faculty for doing this? Brenda Milner: Yes, yes Carol Tavris: Because you seem to be just following your heart and interests into this field. There’s no boulders in the way? Brenda Milner: Well, the only boulder was the competitiveness. As I said, there were only 400. And Oxford was very similar. There were two women’s colleges at Cambridge, Newnham and Girton, and 400 students allowed in the University across the three years that it takes to get a degree and all the subjects So it was very, very competitive. As I say, to get in in mathematics, I had to be competitive It was with other girls, right? Whereas there were loads and loads, thousands of men. Now this is very, very different because, well, there are a few more women’s colleges. But the main difference is that women in both Oxford and Cambridge now go to the men’s colleges There’s no barrier whatsoever. It’s just merit or your own fortune, many things, but it’s not a gender barrier. But in those days, it was just limited how many would be in that and I was determined Carol Tavris: You were determined Brenda Milner: I’ve always been determined Carol Tavris: Yeah, somehow I have that feeling about you. I can’t think why. So let’s consider now this decade then between you graduate, and then it was a decade, and then comes the war, and then comes somehow your move to Canada and Quebec. So would you like to fill us in about that decade, how you found yourself studying? Brenda Milner: Well, Bartlett, who was the chair at Cambridge as I said, was very influential I mean, he was very highly respected in England, and he was very good at keeping his scientists out of uniform. We were recruited as civil servants, if you like. But in my first two years I had my Cambridge scholarship, so it was no problem. But it’s important to know that we were doing war [sounds like] work, but we were not in uniform. This meant that we were working with the Air Force and you could look at an air marshal in the eye and tell him something and he had to listen. But if you were in uniform and junior rank, it would be very different. So Bartlett was very, very good that way And I adapted some of my tasks to deciding whether a pilot should be in fighter planes or bomber planes. This was something we were doing. But my money ran out within two years, and then I was recruited by C. P. Snow, the novelist and scientist. He was a scientist too. He came to Cambridge recruiting people He recruited me for a radar research establishment

which began in south coast of England but then moved to the center of England, Malvern, because they were afraid that the Germans would come and capture brains. Not our young little brains but we had some really very fine scientists, mature scientists. They didn’t want to have Germans coming over and capturing them and taking them back to Germany to work for them or whatever, so we would move to the middle of England and it was lovely actually And this is my job Here there were very few very few women, right offices. There were two women librarians with me in the three offices, if you like, in this big establishment of physicists and mathematicians Again, that was physics and mathematics. The job there was radar research, this was in the Battle of Britain, which was really critical Radar was very critical in the Battle of Britain There were planes coming. You wanted to know how to represent the plane and how to follow it, to keep it on target so it could be shut down. So one had to find the best way of displaying the plane and the best way of keeping on track You could try to do that with what they called direct laying and then you’re really working very, very hard. Or you can do it with velocity laying, and then just a small movement can produce a big effect. Or something in between the two that we called aided laying, which was the best But my job was to try to find out which was the best kind of control and which was the best way of displaying the plane. Of course, to do that in a lab in the center of England, I was not looking at real planes. We had to have an apparatus for doing this. And Peter Milner — my maiden name was Langford, it’s not Milner. Peter Milner was an electrical engineer who was working there and had the job of designing the apparatus that I was using. That was how I got to know Peter. Often this apparatus would break down and I would call Peter. So we eventually got — and he got interested in psychology. That’s how we became friends Carol Tavris: Brenda, excuse me, but my job is now to get you to Canada with Peter Brenda Milner: Okay. That’s the next thing, yes. So we knew by the end of ’44 that the war in Europe was coming to an end and I was going to go back to Cambridge. It was all settled. Then one evening Peter comes in and he was looking very worried and puzzled. He’d been called in that day to a meeting with the director because John Cockcroft, who was a very famous physicist who was based in Cambridge actually, had been invited to take a group of physicists and engineers and mathematicians to Canada to set up the beginnings of Canadian atomic energy. Peter, who was very good at what he did, was invited to go along. And invited in wartime means told, right? And they were leaving next week or something like that So on the spur of the moment we got married We literally did. We went back and worked half an hour later. Then we packed up all of our books and went to Birmingham for censorship Then we sailed from Scotland, from Glasgow, in the Queen Elizabeth which was a troopship It was full of war brides, people who had married. I was asked the other day what is a war bride, what a war bride is. War brides were English girls who had married American soldiers and sailors and were being taken back to the United States, to the families of the men that they had married. So this ship was full of war brides, and it was also full of troops and things and us We zigzagged across the Atlantic in really perfect blackout to land in Boston. On the way, the thing that I remember of that – because I was travelling with Peter – they called all the women on the first night into this big salon. The ship’s captain told us that we mustn’t harass the men. Anyway, that’s how I got — So there I’m in Boston. We still didn’t know what was happening next. But then what was in fact happening was that we were on a train up to Montreal, Canada. And so then I am in Montreal we both thought for one year, right? And still, we’re both still there. So I got into Montreal, and that was the first amazingly lucky thing. One of the things that I always say to everybody in any lecture is that you don’t get anywhere without luck I don’t think anybody who’s had a successful career can just look back and say, oh, it’s all a nice, splendid effort. You have to have luck along the way and you have to recognize that luck and seize it, right? But my luck was to find myself in a French speaking city. Well, it was much more English speaking then than it is now. Remember I had this love of French, and I had to look around for a job. The McGill Department was really

depleted at that point because most of the staff had gone off to do things in the war effort and was still so engaged. And, anyway, I didn’t have this wonderful PhD. They didn’t bother about those things in England in those days So I was looking for a job, and the first job I got was from the French University, Universite de Montreal, which was very exotic for me because it was run by Dominican priests and they were all in white robes. And I’d never seen a Dominican priest in my life, I don’t think. The head of the department, Father Matthew, was a Dominican priest who was teaching Freud in the daytime and Saint Thomas Aquinas in the evenings to his students Of course, that left a lot of psychology out, right? So he was delighted to have the chance So he asked me if I would teach Bartlett’s theory of memory, and then if I would run an experimental psychology class, and then if I would run a comparative psychology on rats and so on. That was a real challenge I mean, I was so excited to be working in a French environment and I needed the job, but you realize I didn’t have the vocabulary It’s a very different vocabulary from Flaubert and Rassin and so on. Nor did I have the habit of speaking French. I had the habit of reading and understanding it. Nor did I have an ear for Quebecois French, which is it’s actually much better French that I realized when I got there, but the accent is the question There’s a vocabulary, a local vocabulary too, but there is an accent which is really very different from the accent I had been trained on. So I had these three things – the accent, the vocabulary, and the fact that I was speaking a language which I really never used for work before. So I worked terribly hard, but it was wonderful. I spent seven years in Universite de Montreal, and I really loved it. I still have many friends there Carol Tavris: So then how did you get to work with Dr. Hebb and Dr. Penfield? Brenda Milner: Well, as I say, psychology at McGill was nothing at that point. But they knew they had to build that department up, and they began by getting MacLeod. You may have heard of McLeod from Europe who had worked on the constancies in Europe. He came and he rebuilt the department. He got Ferguson in statistics, and he got Donald Hebb. Donald Hebb was a Canadian, was a student of Karl Lashley Hebb had spent one year in 1937 at the Montreal Neurological Institute which was founded in 1934 and where Penfield was pioneering the neurosurgical treatment of epilepsy. And Hebb had been able to study some of Penfield’s patients in that period and been impressed by, well, he thought the relevance of this because what Hebb was doing was insisting, as you know in this book The Organization of Behavior, that we should start thinking about relation between brain and behavior There was lots of very, very good behavioral science going on and there was lots of good neurophysiology going on that he thought it was time to try to put the two together, and so he’d been writing this book When he was recruited to McGill, he had this book in manuscript and he had a seminar. Unfortunately, the seminars in those days were in the evenings So then I was teaching in the day on the other side of town, I could come down in the evenings That was a wonderful seminar, and that’s where I met Mort – a friend through life. He was taking that same seminar with Hebb. People who took that seminar will never forget it We took it chapter by chapter. We had to do all the background reading. Some of it was very tough neurophysiology for us and so on As I always point out, my background is not biology. It’s math and physics, my scientific way into psychology. So biologically, I was a little naive. But it was wonderful Meantime, what about Peter and what about the imaging in Montreal, what we’ve come over for, the atomic energy research? Actually, my curiosity began in one wing of the University of Montreal. But after a year, the whole thing moved to Chalk River. As you probably know, Chalk River in Ontario is still the place where the headquarters of Canadian atomic energy is. It’s much diminished now. So Peter was there, and I went there in the summer I was writing him long letters about Hebb I went to this incredible seminar, and I wrote Peter these long letters. So Peter gave up By this time it wasn’t obligatory that he stay, the war was over. Gave up engineering and physics and so on. Came to Montreal and applied to do psychology with Hebb. Worked his way through graduate school by helping the McGill cyclotron. So he came and he’s a professor emeritus now in psychology. He worked on motivation and —

Carol Tavris: An excellent husband indeed Brenda Milner: Yes. You do approve of him, yes Carol Tavris: I think so, yes. Absolutely So I think now we really must talk about H.M and how you came to work with H.M. and what kind of fellow he was Brenda Milner: And how I came to Penfield, right? Carol Tavris: Yes. Well, Penfield and then with H.M Brenda Milner: I decided I had to do a PhD, and I wanted to do one with Hebb. Hebb was a very blunt person, very honest. Very kind really, but his bark was definitely — it wasn’t his bite but he had a big bark. I persuaded him to take me as a graduate student, and I started actually doing some work on tactile formed perception in the congenitally blind I was really quite enthusiastic about this, but it hardly got off the ground before he called me in One of the things, when Hebb came to McGill, he got a promise from Dr. Penfield that he could send one graduate student to go and study Penfield’s patients at the Neurological Institute. And he asked me, that’s a bit of luck too. He said would I like to do this? And this was in the summer of 1950. I said yes, I was sort of interested. It was to study temporal lobe and function really because Penfield was operating in other parts of the cortex but there is a very stubborn form of epilepsy involving the temporal lobe. It typically involves the medial structures of the temporal lobe, but we didn’t realize that then Now, these operations are, they’re done to this day, are always in one hemisphere. You know you can operate on one side or one temporal lobe if you got the other working properly You can manage with one eye or one ear. As long as you’ve got one left, you’re all right So all the surgery in Montreal has always been unilaterally in one hemisphere But what can we find out about the functions of the temporal lobes? Although it would take too long for today, I’ve passionately kept up always with the work in the monkeys. I got all my clues as to what might be worth investigating in people. From working with monkeys where you could do bilateral removals and so you could get a clue as to what the temporal lobes were really about. You start from some big experiments and you narrow it down. And Mort Mishkin was working on the inferior temporal cortex of the monkey and we were communicating back and forth about degeneration [indiscernible] all this sort of thing I was still interested in perception. I was interested in the visual pathway from [indiscernible] forwards. It was still not memory that was grabbing me. So, well, my thesis was on left temporal versus right temporal. It was not too surprising to find left temporal lobe deficits, but the rights you always have to fight for. It’s another story. But anyway, which way do you want me to go? Because if you want me to go into bilateral — Carol Tavris: I’d like you to talk about H.M both as a research subject and as a human being that he was because you knew him Brenda Milner: I have to make one thing very, very clear. It’s only right and fair to Penfield, for one thing, is that nobody seems to ask why was this young Canadian woman invited down to Hartford, Connecticut by the surgeon to study his patients. Nobody seems to think about that. They think either that H.M. was a Montreal patient, and he certainly wasn’t And we would never have done bilateral lesions in Montreal. So why was I down there? The reason for this is that the operation of left temporal lobectomy or right temporal lobectomy to cure epilepsy more and more came to involve removal not just of the overlying neocortex, angio [sounds like] so to speak, but also of the medial structures – the amygdala and the hippocampus and overlying — you know, the entorhinal cortex, the surrounding tissue And I would like here to point out that in everything that Penfield and I have written and Scoville and I have written, we’ve always talked about the hippocampal zone and the hippocampal region. We have never said it was just the hippocampus nor claimed that it was. We knew that the hippocampus was involved in this, but not that it was solely the hippocampus And also get a bit of historic sense This is hard nowadays, to realize that when we were starting work in Montreal in those days in the ’50s, we had no way of looking into the brain before the surgery. We knew the plain fields [sounds like] of the skull, and we knew the shape of the ventricles. EEG was in its beginnings with Dr. Jasper, and we had just few clues. And we were trying to find where the patient seizures were coming from in order to operate and remove that area of damaged malfunctioning cortex. So it was important to get the side right and the locus right. You’ve got to be pretty good at this

It was very different from now when you have the MR and you have wonderful recording methods and so on and so forth. A totally different situation Anyway, I know that I have to get to H.M so I won’t take too much time. We had a very interesting patient in Montreal, who I will call P.B., who was an engineer from New Jersey He had a very limited removal five years before I hadn’t known him then. Just limited to the cortex because Penfield was very cautious But he came back still having seizures and Penfield realized he’d have to go medially So he completed what had then become sort of standard temporal removal of the amygdala and hippocampus. After that, this patient said, what have you people done to my memory? Now, I had tested this man before the operation I didn’t test H.M. before his operation. I had tested him thoroughly. He didn’t remember me, of course, but I had tested him. I tested him after nightfall and showed all these essential features. This was a highly intelligent man with a wife and family, and a life and all the rest of it, and head of his engineering office. You could see what this had done, but you could also see that there’s no change in his IQ – and this is a general thing – which was superior. No change in his immediate memory as measured by a digit span, his [indiscernible] and so on, but just this forgetting his life as he lived it, which is a disaster So we had two patients like that and we decided we had to report them. Penfield and I reported these in Chicago actually, my first visit to Chicago, at the annual meeting of the American Neurological Association. I presented these two cases and we hypothesized, to account for this unexpected memory loss, that there was atrophy. There was damage in the hippocampal region of the opposite hemisphere, the unoperated side. So that when Penfield made removal on the left, effectively he deprived the patient of hippocampal function bilaterally. That was our hypothesis Twelve years later P.B. died and Dr. Penfield examined the brain and confirmed the hypothesis There was more atrophy on the right than the removal on the left. But at that time it was conjecture. And Dr. William Scoville — now I’m going to H.M. Dr. William Scoville, a surgeon associated with Yale University where he and Hartford read the abstract, he came to the meeting. He phoned Dr. Penfield and he said, “I think I have seen the sort of memory disturbance that you and Dr. Milner are describing in one of my patients on whom I have done my operation,” he just called it “my operation” at that point, “and I would like to invite Dr. Milner to come down to Hartford and to test my patient and any other of my patients that interest her.” And Penfield said to me, “Would you like to go?” And I said, “You bet I’d like to go.” So this was what began why I got to see H.M. rather than somebody local from Yale I started taking the night train from McGill, from Montreal – that’s how you went to Hartford – arriving about 3:00 in the morning and spending two or three days there working with the patient Later, I would take down a few tests from McGill Psychology Department, what I could carry and so on, and then come back and digest the results. Now where do you want me to go from there? That’s how I met H.M. Now what you want to know? I’m sorry. You’re asking me questions Carol Tavris: What would you say is the most important research we’ve learned from H.M.? And I would like you to talk a little about him Brenda Milner: About him? Carol Tavris: About him Brenda Milner: H.M. died a couple of years ago at the age of 82. He was 27 when he was operated on, and he was 29 when I met him first. But in later years he’s been followed more by my former student Suzanne Corkin, who’s at MIT, than by me. But in the beginning it was just me. He was a very, very gentle person. He almost seemed very gentle and passive But when we suggested that might be to do with the amygdala removal, Dr. Scoville said wait until you see his father. The father was also gentle and passive. The mother was the prime mover in that little family He’d had a terrible epilepsy. This is something that from the pathology, they may get clues to. Nobody knows why he had such a terrible epilepsy. He had a minor accident. He fell off his bicycle or something and had minor head injuries at the age of 16. I think he was 16 or 9, I’m not sure. And then he developed these terrible major amount of seizures Now the operation that Scoville had developed, he developed in the bad old days of lobotomies and things for schizophrenia. It was a bilateral

procedure, so it differs from any Montreal procedures. It was bilateral. They went in like that and it took the medial structures of both hemispheres. You would expect to have trouble, I think, and such He did it not in impulse. He discussed this with the family quite a bit before doing this He was influenced I think a great deal by the good results in the treatment of epilepsy, the temporal lobe epilepsy we were having in Montreal. But H.M.’s epilepsy was generalized seizures [sounds like], and so it’s not presenting electrographically or behaviorally like temporal lobe seizures. But Scoville’s sort of gut reaction instinct about this was right because from taking these huge doses of medication, he became somebody. He still had the occasional big seizure and quite a few little ones, but he was on really, really reduced dosage of medication for the rest of his life. It was an amazing good result from the point of view of epilepsy, but of course with his terrible memory impairment Now H.M. never knew me until the end of his life. I mean I could be working with him and he would — he was always polite. He knew in some way that he was doing something for science. He acquired little bits of semantic knowledge very slowly, the cortical learning very slowly. I mean, it took him about five years to learn the layout of his new house that they had moved to just shortly before his surgery, but he did learn it in over about a five-year period. He knew there had been somebody, some president that had been killed He knew something about astronauts. He watched television assiduously, and he did crossword puzzles over and so on. But he had these few facts that were of great interest in the world around him, were presented on TV, and radio, and conversation all the time. He acquired solely these little items. He was very vague about them and a bit worried, but he did acquire these little bits of knowledge. Otherwise, he was just forgetting from moment to moment We got later on when [indiscernible] used to go and pick him up from Hartford and take him back to MIT and worked with him for a bit. And when [indiscernible] died, suddenly Sue Corkin, my student, sort of inherited this. They have a little hospital sponsored by NIH there at MIT and they bring in people for nutrition studies. They bring H.M. in for a week and I would be told, “H.M.’s coming. Do any of your students want to see him or do anything?” But it was really Sue then that was making H.M. available to people But in the early days, the most exciting thing for me, there is no question about this, I have — to this day I suppose it’s the most exciting thing; it’s trite now of course When I started working with him, well, first of all, it was clear that he would retain information very, very well by constant verbal rehearsal. So the first day I said to him, “I want you to remember the number 584 I’m going out for a while. I’ll come back.” I went out 20 minutes and I had a cup of coffee with Dr. Scoville’s secretary. I came back and I said, what was the number? And he said 584. I was very naive back in those days I said, “Really? That’s very good. How did you do it?” He said, “Well, 5,8 and 4 add up to 17. Divide by 2, you get 8 and 9 Remember 8, divide 9, you have 5 and 4. 584 Simple.” He said. And I said, and “Do you remember my name?” “I’m sorry, the trouble is my memory.” So he’d forgotten and I told him over and over again So here was this patient that we were saying, and the other patients too, that they had a restricted kind of part of the brain removed and they were showing this forgetfulness of their life as they lived it. This met with quite a lot humming and hawing. There must be something sort of strange about this patient or about something. You wanted to say — I certainly couldn’t get up and say he can’t learn anything because people would say, well, have you tried to teach him anything? So the challenge then was to see if there was some kind of learning he could do. So that was, I say, when I took these tasks from McGill and went down and trained him on all sorts of maze learning and he couldn’t learn them But I had — there’s one exception which was very exciting to me then. There was a mirror drawing task, you probably all know what that is. It was a five pointed star, double contour, on an 8 x 10 piece of paper. He was told to start at a point and trace a line with a pencil keeping within the narrow margins of the star But the only thing that made this difficult was that he could only see his hand and the

star as reflected in the mirror. And you know what happens then when you get to the points For all of us, you do this kind of thing because the mirror is giving you such misleading cues But then, as you go on practicing, this improves and you eventually have a nice learning thing And H.M., I watched H.M. over three days of a good nice graph. These three days of the 30 trials and his errors and his time, a beautiful learning curve. Then the next day, of course he didn’t know me or know us or anything, he started where he left off a bit jagged The third was beautiful performance. At the end of the last trial, and this was again — pardon me, I can only remember few emotional experiences. I mean I do. He stood up, he was a tall man, and he looked down and he said, “That’s strange.” He said, “In the beginning I thought that was going to be difficult, but it seems as though I’d done quite well.” He had just no recollection of all the experiences at those trials he had lived through I was really excited and I thought, well, psychologists have often said that motor learning is different. There are all sorts of rules about motor learning which are a little bit different from other kinds of learning. I don’t need to rehearse them to you. And maybe this is a different kind of system. Maybe there’s another kind of learning. As you know, there were other examples that came up. This was what Larry Squire began calling procedural learning, and it involves very much the basal ganglia And at the same time my colleagues in England, everybody by this time, before they have been interested in memory but now they were certainly very interested in memory and everybody wanted their amnesics. And my colleagues in England were working with the people who had survived meningitis and were left with a memory condition like this because it had gone in and tapped those structures of the brain, and they got a paper in Nature. I remember this in Nature Yes, it would be Nature. That British — and it was Larry Weiskrantz and Elizabeth Warrington at National Hospital. It was what now I call perceptual learning, but it was what people would call priming They had shown that if you were shown a puzzle picture, you, if I were to show you a puzzle picture, you don’t quite know what it was And if I added a little bit more contour to a certain moment, would say, oh, that’s a dog or, oh, that’s a chair. Then if I were to show you that the next day, of course you would be able to recognize it with less cueing Quite less cueing. And then months later, months later, and that’s the learning memory aspect of it, months later you would need less information. You’d see these things Well, Larry Weiskrantz and Elizabeth Warrington showed for their patients that this was intact in amnesia, and I replicated this for H.M months later. So that is an example of priming, and that depends very much on the visual cortex and so on, conditioning and things involving the cerebellum Let’s finish with this question. Starting with Lashley, we had this idea of the cortex being equipotentiality and mass action. The more cortex you have, the better. The more you lost, the worse. So memory wasn’t a very interesting topic to study. It was just that sort of quantitative thing in the rats and mazes. Then you get to the state when we’re getting more and more discreet memory systems doing different kinds of learning, a totally different vision of the brain and not just limited to the cortex by any means. But in the middle of it, you know you have still this key autobiographical memory. We really are that kind of memory. We build our lives, our personalities, everything, on being able to build that from moment to moment and keep precious occasions in mind like I would keep today Carol Tavris: We only have a few more minutes, and so I’d like to turn this to a kind of concluding thought. Here you are at 93, about to be 94, looking back over a life in psychological science. So I have a two-part question. To what do you attribute the excellence of your mind and memory? And what thoughts do you have for the next generation of psychological scientists coming up? Care to comment? Brenda Milner: Well, the first one I think easily I really do attribute it to good luck in my genes. One of the things that I got was a sort of a drive to excel. I suppose to do what I wanted to do or not to be deterred So I was able to carve my way and had lots of good fortune, as I’ve told you, and wonderful teachers and wonderful help. But I think that the really I was very resolute. That’s the answer to that, good genes and being resolute was part of it As far as the advice to coming people embarking in this wonderful field of neurosciences and behavioral sciences, I would like to say, first of all, if you’ve embarked on something

and you find that it’s not quite right for you, for goodness sake don’t hesitate to change I could be a mediocre math teacher today, and poor high school students — well, not today at 90. And that would’ve been no life for me or for the students, right? So if you’re in the wrong track, change. But if you really are very attracted by, and I would say by I can’t resist saying the neurosciences but behavioral sciences, all this, life in the lab, don’t think you’re going to make a discovery every week or even every year You have to examine your own personality Are you capable of being really very patient? I’ve never been bored. Well, hardly ever So can you take a lot of readings and just record things, or spend a lot of time maybe alone? A reward may come months later, you know. If that doesn’t appeal to you, keep out of the sciences. It’s glamorous, but you hear about the glamor and you don’t hear about the frustrations or experiments that go wrong, and you have to change your hypothesis and start all over. And there are grants that you don’t get, and those sorts of articles that don’t get published. If you can tolerate frustration and not get bored easily and get really excited about what you’re doing, then you’re in the right field Carol Tavris: That would be a good lesson for us all, I think. Absolutely. Do you have any further thoughts or comments you would like to offer to your listeners? Advice for a successful 90s? Brenda Milner: Not a successful 90s, I don’t know, but about life in general. I do have my plug for bilingualism, multilingualism I’m so grateful, yes, to my parents that I was exposed to foreign languages. It happened to be German very early. I really find that it’s very good for the brain. I’m switching languages in Montreal all the time. It’s good for the brain, as been shown. There’s a benefit Maybe a tiny loss in your vocabulary, in your own language, but it’s worth it for this It’s also tremendously rewarding socially Travel if you can, that’s my advice. And when you travel in whatever country, if you can begin to express yourself a little in that language, you will have so much more welcome, so much more feeling of belonging. I’ve been privileged being in French Canada. It’s a peculiar situation, unusual situation, but it’s really very, very enriching If you’re having children, please expose them to another language – it doesn’t matter which one – very quickly, very quickly and you won’t regret it. It teaches you a lot about your own language. Sometimes when you hear or have something said in other language, you say, oh yes, of course. And it increases your understanding of your own language also. Dr. Penfield believed this. This is one thing we really agreed about When he retired, he spent a lot of time going across Canada lecturing in favor of early learning of a foreign language. And I believe it Carol Tavris: Dr. Miller, merci bien. Muchas gracias. I think we’ve come to the end of a most interesting interview. Thank you so very much. 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