Conversation Starts @1:27 mins Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Sadhguru it’s a absolute pleasure to be with you here today I have… I have a large audience, I have a mike, I have no time limit, I have not been on air for three months (Sadhguru laughs), I am completely starved, they’ve told me to have a conversation with you and there are some of my guests who come on my program who have been probably missing this It’s wonderful to be with you, it’s… I… I have spent some time with you one-on-one in the past We have had conversations The one thing which I have always found about you is that you are just so normal You are so (Laughter) Sadhguru: That’s an insult (Laughs) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): See this is a… I do a news program, you are turning this into an entertainment show (Laughter) Can I please proceed? You are a wonderful person because I find you straight, I find you direct, I don’t find you pretentious, I think you speak so much common sense, you say so many deep things in a very understandable way, which explains your popularity and why so many people have turned up this evening to listen to you I was told that the theme of Rotary has been Success, Service and Spirituality We will try and start off by talking about that and you can take it forward for them What is more important, Success, Service or Spirituality? Choose one of them Sadhguru: If you are Whether you do spirituality or service you want success in that also You want to be successful because the very purpose of any human activity – whether it’s something small that you do or something large that you do something very simple as hitting a ball you want to be successful You don’t want to do it in a goofy way Even if you blow your nose and want to throw the tissue into the bin, you want to be successful (Laughs) I am saying something so silly also you want to be successful The biggest things that you do in your life, of course you want success. So success is key to all human activity. Success means Success is not recognition, success is not what somebody else says, success is you’re doing things the way it works. The purpose of activity is just this, it must work. If you do something in a way it doesn’t work and you think it’s big (Laughs), you are… you are in the wrong place Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): But what happens when a person is individually successful but at the cost of others? I… I personally often think that people turn to spirituality as an alternative to their own success because they feel guilty about their own success and want to make up for it through spirituality Sadhguru: Let’s understand what is spiritual process If you are thinking in terms of spiritual process means you look heavenward – no This has been cultured These things we’ve picked up in the last few centuries, otherwise it did not exist in this country, of looking up – Ooperwala doing things This is a huge problem – which I am trying to change dramatically now – if little things go wrong in your life, you find one little person there (Pointing downward) and think it’s because of him If big things go wrong in your life, you find a big guy there (Pointing skyward) and you think it’s because of him This guy (Referring to oneself) is absent

It’s time to bring this guy into account He is been you know unaccounted man for too long Small things this guy, big things that guy, what about this guy? It is time My endeavor is to move people from religion to responsibility because spiritual process means this What you’re referring to as spirit is that which is the basis of your body When I say that which is the basis of your body – you were not born like this, you came with such a small one and now you become like this If you put a banana into this, it becomes the same kind of body, if you put a chapatti into this, it become the same body So there is an intelligence and a dimension within us, which builds you from within How…How can any human being know life without addressing this dimension? It is like – you know the paintwork of your car, you know what is… you do not know what is sitting in the hood Right now, every time there is an advertisement for an automobile – not that I am going to buy one, but I always look up because I am interested in all kinds of mechanical things and I am amazed, in India all the ads talk about the paintwork, about the leather, about the woodwork, Nobody is telling us – what is the engine; what is the transmission` what kind of systems does it have, nothing because people are just driving paintwork So if your life is such that you just live with your body and your psychological process, you’re just driving paintwork and leather work and woodwork, no engine The engine of life is the spiritual process Without taking charge of this, you will only be a fraction human being, not a full human being So if you want success and if you want to do something useful to yourself and to everybody around you, first thing is spiritual process But even there you need success (Laughs), otherwise it is no good Interviewer: You got to be guided yourself How do you do it (Sadhguru): See if you are not influenced by anybody you don’t need any guidence But very few people could grow up without any influence By the time you are twelve, fifteen years you are pretty screwed up in so many ways because there are so many adults around you always want to teach you something which has not worked in their lives People keep asking me you know I was in United States a few months ago there this lady very angry with me; she says I am doing yoga for the last forty years – nothing happened to me You just went and sat on a rock and all these happened to you she thinks it’s some special rock the only thing I did was right from my childhood – I never got identified with anything either my parentage, my family, my society; the religion around me social structures around me the political stuff whatever was happening I never got identified with anything If you keep your intelligence unidentified, you will naturally become spiritual Is it not normal for this intelligence to ask the question what is beyond this? Is it not very, very normal, for human intelligence to question – because you see people die every day somewhere or the other – “Okay when I fall dead what? Beyond this body what, before this body what?” Is it not a very normal question? But because they messed you up telling you, “Oh you came from heaven and you will go back to heaven and this’s what will happen, that’s what…” About things that they don’t have a clue, everybody is talking with authority Because of this now it looks like somebody has to guide you to a spiritual process If you bring up your children without a single advice – if you are capable of that, it’s very difficult believe me (Laughs) You know, when… when my daughter was just three and a half months old, she was travelling with me One hand on her and my right leg be always full down and I drove across the country and she grew up like this with me till she is five, till she went to school Every day we are in a different home, staying with all kinds of people, everybody wants to teach her something I said one rule is nobody will teach her anything No ABC, no 123, no ‘Mary had a little lamb’ because I don’t care whether Mary had a lamb or not (Laughter) So you won’t believe, nobody taught her anything By the time she is eighteen months, she fluently speaks three languages because she is all ears, because nobody talks to her (Laughs) She just grasped everything around her because nobody is teaching her anything And she grew up like this and when she was twelve, thirteen years of age, one day she came up to me, she just come…came back from school, disturbed about something there and she said, “You’re teaching everybody so many things, you’re not telling me anything.” I said, “Well, I don’t do anything unsolicited Here you come now, let’s see.” So this is all you need to know Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): So what I want to know is how human you are Sadhguru: (Laughs) Let me tell you this’s how human I am Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I haven’t finished my question I want to know I want to know how human you are Sadhguru, because the reason I am asking you this is because (Sadhguru laughs) very often we want to be guided by people who we feel have transcended the insecurities of humanity So I want to know whether you are scared of something (Sadhguru laughs) I want to know whether you have experienced fear, and I would also like to know whether you have attachments Can we start with the first? Sadhguru: Let me finish this This is not news hour okay? When I am…When I am telling you an answer, you can’t ask me another question (Laughter) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I’ll get back, I’ll get back Sadhguru: I am not…We are not yet in Republic either (Laughs) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): You are making a cardinal mistake Sadhguru (Sadhguru laughs) In 2014 I met a young man, called Rahul Gandhi (Laughter) Sadhguru: Oh! Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I don’t know why anyone is laughing again He too interrupted me like you did, I’ll get back later Please continue, but you will have to answer my question later Please go ahead Sadhguru: You ha You have a different package here (Laughter/Applause) So I will come to that, I am very much going towards that

So the girl comes to me and says this, then I say, “See this is all you have to know – never look up to anybody.” She looks at me, ‘what about you’ kind of thing I said, “Not even me Never look up to anybody, never look down on anybody This is all the teaching” (Applause) If you don’t look up to anything, if you don’t look down on anything, you will see everything just the way it is If you see everything just the way it is, you will navigate your life effortlessly That’s all it takes Now how human am I? You just now used the word human and almost everybody, everywhere I go they use the word ‘human’ always referring to the limitations of being human, never talking about the immensity of being human “Oh I am only human.” why are you not saying I am human? You are on top You are the top species on the planet You are supposed to be on top of the pile of all the species Why people are saying ‘I am only human’ is because they are suffering themselves like no other creature Not an ant or an elephant suffers themselves as human beings do Their stomach is full, they are fine For human being, stomach empty only one problem, stomach full one hundred problems The reason is This’s an evolutionary thing (Laughs) It’s an evolutionary thing that what you call as your cerebral flower, this brain is new to you You know in the evolutionary scale of things, it is a new happening, this intellect And most people have not figured how to handle it They are not suffering the world, they are suffering their own thought and emotion most of the time Why is it your education systems did not even teach you how to handle your thought, how to handle your emotion? Now the moment you say you are human or not, first thing the next question somebody will ask is, can I pull a gold chain from thin air, can I do something else or can I pull out a rabbit from the vessel or can I pull a pigeon out of my pocket? If I pull a pigeon out of pocket… my pocket, what will you have? You will have a bird, I’ll have a shitty pocket (Laughter) This’s not going to change anybody’s lives I will show you a miracle I will show you people who have… who are full on activity – not people who are sitting in some cave – full on activity all right? Twenty hours a day, seven days of the week we are all on I will show you people for five, ten, fifteen years they’ve not had a moment of anger, agitation, irritation, nothing They live joyfully, blissfully This is the miracle the world wants This is the miracle humanity needs If this happens to you, you will not refer to human as a limitation You will talk about human as a huge possibility (Applause) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): My question My question was about whether you need to transcend a few things I personally think it’s all right It’s good to feel fear, it’s good to have insecurities, it’s good to be attached But what we are constantly told is to be guilty about fear, to be worried about expressing or being open about Sadhguru: That is multiplying the problem Now you have fear and now you have guilt Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): See, Sadhguru I listened to you (Laughter) Sadhguru: I still watch News hour, so what can I do (Laughter)? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): This doesn’t usually happen to me (Laughter) But Rotary club, well, okay So…You’ve made me forget my question My point was that we are constantly told to be to be embarrassed about our insecurities, right? We are told not to have attachments We are constantly told that in our lives, and in our own Hindu philosophies and other philosophies, to lose attachments I want to know why this is necessary, which is why I asked you because you were described as an enlightened soul which I know you are I asked you whether an enlightened Sadhguru: No, you do not know Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): …enlightened soul like you (Sadhguru laughs) feels insecurity, experiences attachment Sadhguru: See, why this has come up is, because people have a selective sense of involvement This’s what I said when I said ‘do not look up to anything, look…do not look down on anything.’ This is because if you look up to any…something, you will exaggerate

If you look down on something, you will exaggerate the negative The moment you look up to something you will get attached to it The moment you look down on something, you will get dejected by it in some way, disgust will come So these… these emotions of fear, insecurity, attachment, detachment, everything is a consequence Shall we handle the source, or shall we handle the consequence? People are always busy handling the consequence They’re telling you ‘trim your fear.’ Can you feel… trim it? No way is it going to work Now you’re flipping on the other side and saying, ‘we need not be ashamed of it, let’s have it.’ Is it a pleasant experience I am asking? Is fear, insecurity, guilt whatever – is it a pleasant experience? If it’s a pleasant experience keep it, it’s up to you If it’s an unpleasant experience is it a choice? I am asking you just this much In the world around us, what happens, it’s a different issue World will never happen hundred percent the way you want it Even if you’re just two people in the family, still it doesn’t happen the way you want it If it’s fifty-one percent your way you are the boss Okay (Laughs)? More than that won’t happen But what happens within you must happen your way, isn’t it? If what happens within you happened your way, would you keep this blissful, or would you keep this fearful or miserable or whatever? You wouldn’t do that to yourself, isn’t it? At least for yourself you want the highest level of pleasantness Though what you want for your neighbor may be debatable, but what you want for yourself is very clear, isn’t it? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): So it’s okay to have fear, it’s okay to be insecure? Sadhguru: No, I didn’t say that Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): It’s okay to be attached? And what about Sadhguru: I’m asking you, if you had a choice Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): And what about ego Sadhguru? Fear, insecurity, attachment and ego – these are the four things Sadhguru that we are told to get rid of Over a period of time we are told that as you grow older and you learn more in life, you must learn to give away all four Sadhguru: Who is your guru? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Pardon me? Sadhguru: Who is your guru? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Who is (Laughter)? Why should I reveal? No, but this is a fact, this is what we are told Is it necessarily the truth? Sadhguru: Let’s go one at a time The ego Everybody is talking about this Right now in a… any human being for that matter, if they do something wonderful, they’ll say, “I did it.” If they do something nasty, “It was my ego.” So Mister Ego is a fall guy Whenever you turn nasty, he’s always there, but when you do good things, it’s of course you, isn’t it? I’m saying let’s become straight with life, that sometimes you are wonderful, sometimes you’re nasty, sometimes you’re joyful, sometimes you’re miserable, this is your reality right now You don’t need a fall guy This much sincerity we must bring into our lives that what happens from within me is me and nobody else but me If you come to this much, now if you see…You’re fearful or you’re miserable or you’re frustrated, or you’re depressed, if you see it’s all because of me, would you not want to change it? Would you not want to change it? One hundred percent Now, “I want to change it, how?” Tch, now you’re asking for tools That is why I’m here, just giving you tools for transformation because tools are important in human life As human beings we are dominating the planet only because of our ability to use tools Otherwise probably a colony of ants or a pack of dogs could dominate human species But we can use tools The power of tools is such – right now if I ask you to unscrew a little screw in this furniture, you may lose all your nails, it’ll not come out, you may lose some of your teeth, it’ll not come out If I give you a little screwdriver, it’ll come out So similarly, to handle the inner dimensions, there are tools These tools This is the USP of this country which is all messed up right now, that people have not presented it properly If I give you tools for transformation, the only thing is to learn to use the tools, that’s all You don’t have to believe any philosophy, you don’t have to adhere to any ideology, you don’t have to look heavenward, because you don’t know in which direction it is People are looking up After all, you’re sitting on a round planet and the damn thing is spinning all the time, if you look up, you are obvious inevitably looking up in the wrong direction (Laughter) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Sadhguru, two simple questions One is, when you experienced what you said, sitting on a rock and you experienced enlightenment – we spoke about it once – you described it to me – please don’t think it’s an absurd question –

why did it happen to you and doesn’t it happen to others, A. What did you experience and what do others have to go through to go through that experience? Are you blessed in a different way? Why did nobody else go through that experience? Everyone seeks it Sadhguru: Everyone is not seeking it, nor was I seeking it I was not seeking it Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Tell me about it Sadhguru: I must give you some background When I was just four, four-and-a-half years of age, I suddenly realized that I don’t know anything I don’t know anything means I don’t know anything at all – to such an extent, if somebody gives me a glass of water, I would be simply staring at the water for hours on end I know what is water, in terms of how I can use it but I don’t know what it is Even today we don’t know what it is With all this scientific exploration, we still do not know what a single atom is We know how to break it, we know how to use it, we know how to fuse it, but we don’t know what it is So, if I saw a leaf, I’m just staring at staring at it for five-six hours I sit up in my bed and I’m staring at the darkness for the entire night My dear father being a physician thinks that I need psychiatric evaluation You also beginning to think (Laughter) So he is worried, “This boy is simply staring at something all the time.” My problem is, I looked at this and I don’t know what this is, I’m not able to shift my attention to another one What is this, what is that, what is that, what is that? By the time I’m five, I’m a billion questions And nobody seems to know anything Initially – they were all comfortable – I thought they all know, only I don’t know Then slowly I realized they have made a deal with their ignorance Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Deal with? Sadhguru: Ignorance They’ve made a deal with their ignorance They have all decided, “This’s how it is We don’t know, you don’t know, it’s okay We’ll all pretend everything is fine” (Laughter) I couldn’t make a deal with my ignorance So I just sat there staring at everything In this condition they sent me to school (Laughs) My mother said, “You must pay attention to the teacher.” I went and paid attention to the teacher (Laughter), the kind of attention the teacher would have never receive in their life (Laughter) Initially I heard their words and sort of understood what they were trying to say, but after a while I realized they are only making sounds This’ll be very useful They are only making sounds, I’m making up the meaning in my head When I realized they are just… you know, hour after hour, teacher after teacher, they come and make sounds, make sounds and make sounds, I’m making up meanings and meanings and meanings Then I realized this and I stopped making meanings, I just paid attention to the sounds After some time it became so amusing, a big smile spread on my face but they were not amused (Laughter) Things continued like this About eight-nine years ago, this school where I studied over forty-five or fifty years ago, they came to invite me for their 125th anniversary I said, “See, why me? Because I was not just a bad student, I was not even a student.” I only went there when it was a must They said, “No, no, our school has produced union ministers, our school has produced test cricketing stars, film stars, you’re the only mystic, you have to come” (Laughs) So I went So I go up there go there and stand up in the quadrangle to speak and I look around – same oppressive buildings Then I looked like this, this classroom, suddenly it reminds me I’m twelve years of age and those days I wouldn’t speak for many days at a time because when you don’t know anything, what to say? So one afternoon the teacher is trying to get a response from me, he’s asked a question and he’s ask a… waiting for a response I simply look at him I say nothing He can’t make out anything of me And after some time, I don’t even see him, it’s like that for me I know his past, present and future, but I don’t hear what he’s saying After thirty-five – forty minutes of this effort, he got so mad with me, he came and held me by the shoulder (Gestures), shook me violently like this (Gestures) and said, “You must either be the divine or the devil I think you’re the later (latter?).” I was not insulted by this or abused by this My problem was, “What is this, what is that, what is that, what is that?” One certainty was that this is me Suddenly this guy confused me about this also

I looked (Laughter), “Is this divine, is this devil? What the hell is this” (Laughter)? I thought this is me This was okay till then (Laughs), suddenly I didn’t know what is this (Gestures by pointing to himself) So I tried to stare at myself, it didn’t work so I started closing my eyes What was minutes then went into hours went into days and that is my spirituality (Laughs) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): And then Then what happened? Sadhguru: I By the time I’m fifteen, I’m almost ready to leave home for an armed struggle These’re the days of Charu Majhumdar and Somalu and I want to leave because any anything that I perceive as injustice, my… my stomach burns so I want to rush A bunch of boys, all of us want to leave and join ‘armed struggle.’ Then when I got very close to them, then I saw they were, unfortunately not what they were talking So I kind of stepped back Then I became a super skeptic I grew up on Dostoevsky, Camus, Kafka, this kind of stuff, skeptical about everything But one thing was eating me, that is these billions of questions and they started growing, the number of questions went on growing as my intellect grew No answer, then the only answer I found was to travel, so initially I cycled across South India Then I motorcycled across India, I crisscrossed India many times all over the place Then when I was nineteen plus, I just, you know I’ve been riding since I was eleven without a license, but by eighteen the day I became eighteen I went and got my license within a week’s time So suddenly I thought I am super-empowered, I can go where I want Then I came to Nepalese border, and then they stopped me and they asked for a passport I didn’t know what it is You won’t believe, I was nearly twenty, nineteen at least, I did not know what is a passport I did not… I thought my license will get me everywhere (Laughs) Then, that was a kind of a realization, I thought, “Okay, oh I can’t cross these lines.” So I went back determined to get myself a passport and some money so that I’ll travel forever because the only thing that cooled me down from these questions was I was moving I rode across the country alone, by myself, simply, not going anywhere in particular I saw India like very few people would have seen India, in a completely different way I just walked into villages, just knocked on a door and said, “I’m hungry” and they fed me, without asking my name, where I come from Sometimes I was tired, so I slept in their homes Next day morning I left without asking their name, who they are, but that imagery, those people, those emotions, that stuff – I think it hugely enriched my life, and the terrain I can run that terrain that I have seen thousands of kilometers of terrain, is like a video in my mind, I can just run it in my mind and just enjoy India just like that Not some great monuments or something Just a tree, an outcrop of rock or this or that – like that This is how I remember everything because I never think in words Even today I think only in pictures and images, not in words I think that’s what keeps me very, very entertained (Laughs) by everything that I do (Laughs) So, then I thought I should make some money and got into business, became far more successful than people would expect in a short period of time And everybody started clapping their hands, “You’re doing great (Claps) and wonderful.” But I was doing all this to get away from everything But as success came, you know, you… I tried to put one finger, then all the five fingers went, then all the ten fingers went, it’ll go right up till here (Gestures) I think those highly successful business days, probably was the most wasted days of my life because there was no exploration I did variety of things, I started half a dozen small businesses which all started growing, which people would think is success, but I, when I look back and see, those six years of my life are probably the least creative part of my life Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Why… Why did you do it? Sadhguru: I thought I’ll make money and ride away Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Why did you want to make money? Sadhguru: To ride Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): To ride? Sadhguru: Yeah, to fill the gas, you know (Laughter)? To put gas in the tank all the time (Laughs) because right from the age of twelve, thirteen, I’ve been riding cycles across South India After that, I’ve been on the motorcycle, I don’t know how to You need gas, so I thought I need money to really go away So, it caught me up and then one afternoon,

and you know, Mysore City How many of you are familiar with Mysore City? Okay There’s a little hill called Chamundi Hill There is a tradition in Mysore – at least there was at that time for the youth – if we want to test our motorcycles, we ride up Chamundi Hill If we want to party, we go up Chamundi Hill If we fall in love, we go up Chamundi Hill If we fall out, we have to go up Chamundi Hill (Laughter) If we have nothing to do, we went up Chamundi Hill (Laughter) So that afternoon, between two business meetings, I just had about an hour-and-a-half – without even thinking, I just rode up Chamundi Hill I have camped there, I have trekked this hill right from my childhood, I know this too well So I parked my motorcycle, climb up and sit on that now-famous rock, but I’m telling you the rock is not special (Laughs) It’s like the Bodhi tree – the tree became more famous than the Buddha (Laughter) So, I just went and sat there, my eyes were still open, and suddenly I did not know which is me and which is not me Till that moment, it was always very clear – this is me (Gestures), that is somebody else I have no issue with that somebody, but this is me and that’s somebody else Suddenly I did not know which is me and which is not me, what was me was just everywhere – the very rock upon which I was sitting, the air that I was breathing, the atmosphere around me – everything had become me I thought this madness lasted for about ten-fifteen minutes, but when I came back to my normal state, it was about four-and-a-half hours, my eyes were still open For the very first time in my adult life, tears – me and tears were impossible, I lived like this (Gestures), but tears to a point my shirt is all wet and every cell in my body is bursting with ecstasy When I shook my skeptical head and asked, “What is happening to me”, the only thing that my mind could tell me was, “Maybe you’re going off your rocker.” Then when I shared with my closest friends, “Something is happening to me, it’s too fantastic.” They said, “Ah, come on! What did you drink? What did you pop?” I saw there was nobody around me, nor anything in my mind to tell me what’s happening to me All I knew was I’ve hit something which is a goldmine and I don’t want to miss it for a moment And I just discovered this – if I just sit here without messing with my thought process and my emotion, my entire system will burst out in ecstasy And a few days later I made a plan because I thought I’m the first one to discover this at that time because I had no spiritual I am not acquainted with spiritual traditions, I have never read a scripture in my life Till today I have never prayed to anybody or anything (Laughs), nor have I attended any spiritual discourses or anything So I thought, “This is the first time, I know, and I made a plan – in two-and-a-half to three years’ time, I’m going to make the entire world ecstatic (Laughs) See (Gestures), thirty-five years (Laughter) Well, we have touched one-hundred-and-fifty to 200 million people, but that is not my idea of the world Slowly, you know, these days I have become wise Now I realize so many people have so seriously invested in their misery, they are not going to withdraw their investment so easily It needs so much coaxing and cajoling and life knocking them on their head So many things need to happen to them, or you have to threaten them with death (Laughs), otherwise, they will not withdraw their investments even though it is causing enormous pain and suffering to them They are not willing to withdraw their investments in misery So slowly we are working I know I will die a failure, but a blissful failure Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I’ve made a mistake Sadhguru (Sadhguru laughs) My mistake is that I’m constructing a studio for our Channel Republic I constructed it in Lower Parel, can you tell me the way to Chamundi Hill please (Laughter/Applause)? I want to build my studios in Chamundi Hill I’ll also experience ecstasy every moment (Sadhguru laughs) I don’t know about my guests, Sadhguru: I can make it happen in…wherever you are (Interviewer laughs) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): This is fascinating Sadhguru Life changed after that? Sadhguru: The… The most important thing is, the perception of who I am changed I am not talking about the idea of who I am – the perception of who I am I went up the hill as a smart young man, very cocky and confident about everything I came down as real nothing Just nothing means nothing was left

in me That was my… end of my business (Laughs) Then I loitered around the town because I didn’t want to go home I didn’t want to face my mother because suddenly she was no more my mother Somewhere, I was little struggling with that I knew when I went… went home, I wouldn’t look at her as I would have look… as I have looked at her for the last twenty-five years I didn’t go there till 11:30 in the night I wanted her to go to bed, but our mothers are such, she’s still waiting I put my head down and went I said, “I’m not hungry” and I went and locked in… my… myself in the room because though something so fantastic was happening, I was still struggling between the two worlds Everything that I considered as myself till that moment was gone and suddenly I look at people – it’s indescribable (Laughs) because so many things that you’re involved in, it’s like you almost died I think this is how it must feel when you’re dead So many things – you think this is it, this is it, this is it, but tomorrow morning, poopp, the man disappears – nothing Doesn’t matter you cry, you yell, he doesn’t respond He’s completely gone Just like that, I was completely gone The person that I was, was just gone Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Sadhguru, you meet a lot of interesting people Who is the most self-aware or the most enlightened human being you have met? Sadhguru: There’re lot of people around me Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Names and why? Sadhguru: Oh, usually they are not famous names (Laughs) – simple people (Laughs) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Avoiding my question (Laughs) Sadhguru: No I’m not Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): There must be some people we know who you find the most _____ (Unclear) Sadhguru: See, the most fantastic human beings on the planet are usually not well-known (Applause) because getting known in the world is a different business Being wonderful within you is a different business I’m doing everything possible to marry these two Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): What do you think about the state of the nation? Sadhguru: See, we must understand that – as ancient we are as a nation – the idea of a modern nation has not really sunk into everybody’s minds I believe the way you have named your new venture, in some way, you want the idea to sink in to people’s minds because nation is not some God-given thing It is something that exists in people’s minds and hearts – it’s just an idea that we enshrine in pursuit of common well-being, but it goes somewhere all together Over a period of time, people start thinking it is the thing That’s not how it is, but it is the thing, it’s an important aspect because nation is the largest segment of humanity that you can address right now If you could address the entire humanity, it would be fantastic, but that’s not possible, that’s not realistic right now That may be the ideal, but that’s not realistic So right now, nation is the largest segment of humanity you can address India, as a nation, is a world by itself So though we have a history of what we call as Bharat or Hindustan, which goes back to 10-12000 years of history, both Though, within this geography we had at certain times over two hundred political entities, still we were considered a nation, both by people within and those outside also considered this nation, though there were different kings ruling all over the place

Why this happened – this’ a unique thing – most nations, or all nations, are made on the sameness of something Sameness with language, sameness of race, sameness of religion, some sameness is important We have defied that completely We have never tried to be same in any sense If you drive fifty kilometers anywhere in the country, every fifty kilometers, you meet different kind of people – they look different, talk different, dress different, eat different Everything is different about them, but still we have been a nation for over 10000 years without maintaining the sameness I think it’s a extremely unique and fantastic happening which we must culture and nurture and preserve What is it that kept us together? Why people outside called us a nation, though we were rules by different entities all the time? Fundamental thing which made… made us one nation is that every nation in the world believed in something, we, as a nation, never believed in anything We have always been a nation of seekers – seekers of truth, seekers of liberation Todays (Laughs) In today’s generation, this might have gone out of the present lingo, but it’s coming back in some other way In previous generation, if you spoke, in a day my grandmother wouldn’t end a conversation without at least once uttering the word mukhi or moksha It was like day-to-day thing It’s not like at the end of your life you’re thinking mukhi or when you go to a spiritual discourse you’re thinking mukhi – no In day-to-day life in conversations every day, “Mukhi, mukhi.” Maybe that is why today people are shouting “Azadi, azadi (Referring to Persian word – freedom/liberty)” (Laughs)! Maybe it’s coming back in another way (Laughs), but Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): You’ve s… You’ve heard of the ongoing discussion on freedom of expression and I personally felt pretty outraged last year when a group of people started to make it fashionable to speak against the nation We saw the limits of the debate on freedom of expression last year Sadhguru, my question to you is in the context of what is happening today We’ve seen a little bit of that happen once again on the North Campus of Delhi University In… In your view, why is it becoming fashionable for some people to run down the nation and then use that as an example of the freedom of expression? I find that hypocrisy, what do you think? Sadhguru: Everybody is very freely quoting the constitution It is the constitution of India which gives you the freedom (Laughs) of speech – you must stress on the word India (Laughs) It is the constitution of India, it is not some divine constitution which has given you this freedom It is the constitution of India which has given you this freedom The moment you question that, then you have questioned the fundamentals of the making of a nation See, religions have their own constitution The only problem with this constitution is it’s not amendable (Laughs) A nation has a constitution, but if all of us don’t like it, we can amend it It’s not a… given by somebody, we made it, we agreed to it It’s an agreement Our constitution in an agreement among us So when the freedom of speech was given, they put eight restrictions The Indian constitution puts eight restrictions on human… on freedom of speech One fundamental restriction is it should not question the sovereignty of the nation The moment you question it, you’re questioning the existence of the nation Where does the constitution give you freedom? It doesn’t make sense So, these things are coming from a certain background I… I’m telling you, I went through this when I was thirteen, fourteen By the time I was fifteen, I was ready to pick up the gun because we were…they have fiery talks every day, you know? Very insightful, I mean, not insightful (Laughs) – very inciting kind of talks So fired up that you want to do something And when you are young you always think, you know, violence is the solution Those people who are talking about peace, they don’t believe in it, they believe in violence The moment you talk about breaking up something, there is going to be violence whether you like it or you don’t like it If you… You don’t have to go that bar… back far (far back?) in history, if you just go back to 1948, when the country was broken

Because we didn’t have the courage to fix it, we broke it, we’re still bleeding Half a million people died, endless amount of suffering people went through, and still there are colonies both here in this country and that country which are still not sorted out Yes? Still, even properties are not settled (Laughs) – seventy years How long do you think is human life span? Are we going to live for 1000 years that we’re going to settle our problems over seventy-hundred years? Still, both the nations are bleeding When I say bleeding, don’t think only of the human blood What is the What is the kind of investment we are making in our armed forces? Only because we broke this country, isn’t it? Otherwise, everything could have been focused on the well-being of the people Just to… I mean, just I’m not commenting on this Just recently when I, you know, when I was just reading the newspapers I saw twenty-eight billion dollars for a missile defense system from Russia we’re buying We are buying much more, but I’m just saying – twenty-eight billion dollars, when I think about it, we could educate every child in the country, we could nourish every child in the country, we could do so much work We could make sure people in this country live well, but we cannot do that right now simply because we broke the nation So if you talk about breaking it further, this will go on for centuries because breaking will never be clean breaking – it’ll not happen like that When you break, somebody will be this side, somebody will be that side, so much human suffering – resentment, hatred – which you cannot solve This line that was drawn just sixty-seventy years ago, can you believe it is only sixty years, the level of hatred we have for each other? You can’t cure this, isn’t it? So, breaking is never a solution It’s better to sort it out Whichever way it comes, better to sort it out For that, we have a framework which is called a constitution Constitution, we must – I’m repeating this – is not a divine document, it is an agreement between you and me so that in every step that we take we don’t collide with each other This is the law that we will follow, that’s all Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah, I agree with you I am so glad that you have made your position so abundantly clear on this subject because I don’t know why people are conflicted, Sadhguru Some people say they are conflicted even over issues such as whether you need to stand up for the national anthem We had the most Sadhguru: That’s because in the theatres, in one hand they have popcorn, in the other hand they have Coca-Cola (Laughter) They cannot stand up You must consider these things (Applause) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, but there was that absurd debate last year (Sadhguru laughs), and I know many people here would know about it It became fashionable last year to say, “Assert my right to rebel, and my rebellion is that I will not stand up for the national anthem.” And I’m saying this openly, Sadhguru, I am a part of the media too But I found the pseudo-liberal media in this country advocating that as an example of the freedom of expression And forgive my directness on this, I’d never felt people in my fraternity were more wrong Sadhguru: See, what we need to understand is we’re picking up bits and pieces from developed nations and trying to implant it into our country Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Well said, well said Well said Sadhguru: When… When fifty percent of the population has not even eaten properly, you can’t be debating nuances of democracy, it’s just stupid You go to United States of America, in every sports event, okay – in a baseball match, national anthem is played, everybody will stand up like this (Gestures), okay – with their hand on their heart Well, you’re discussing some kind of French revolution, all right? But you don’t have River Seine flowing, nor do you have Paris around you (Few laugh) You have slums around you, you have a stinking Yamuna flowing You shouldn’t be talking the same language, and half the people have not eaten properly Just take a walk Just take a walk in one of the villages, you will see sixty percent of the population, their skeletal system has not grown to full size We are busy producing underdeveloped human beings Substandard human beings you’re producing and you’re talking about a great nation and fanciful ideas This is not the time When everybody is well-fed, when things are taken care of, then maybe you can talk about certain things This is not the time Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I don’t agree with you Sadhguru I don’t think great nations are built out of economic well-being, but my… that’s my simple point of polite disagreement with you Let me Sadhguru: I’m not

Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Let me Sadhguru: I’m not saying economic well-being Eating – what I need to eat to sustain this body is not economic well-being, it is fundamental right, whether there is a nation or no nation (Applause) Not just for a human being Not just for a human being – for every worm, insect, animal, bird – the basic sustenance necessary for their survival is the right of that creature, isn’t it? So this is not about economic well-being This is a must for every life Every worm, insect, bird, animal, tree must get the fundamental nourishment, of course we are included as one of the creatures Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, I… I meant it in your linking the talk of a great nation to whether we have everything that we need I think we still can be, even if we don’t Sadhguru, with, again, polite disagreement with you – the, you know, what happened in Bangladesh after the famine also saw the rise of the greatest form of nationalism in Bangladesh So, history teaches us different lessons at different points of time I don’t want to argue with you on this We’ll go aside and have an argument after this (Laughter) My… My… My… My point to you, which you… which provokes me to take this discussion further Sadhguru, why have… have we become, like, have we insulated ourselves? The better we do, the more we want to cut ourselves off from our own country and our surroundings And I agree with your previous point In 1997, Sadhguru, I was in NDTV There was a story which came out, a reporter called Sampath Mahapatra called me, and he said that there is a story I want to go and report and we needed approval from the headquarters to send the reporter down Sampath went there and he said, “There is a village where people are dying.” We sent him there When he went there, he said that there was an entire village, which which was dying and the reason for that was horrifying There was complete starvation in that village there was a drought, there was no health facilities, there was not a grain of rice So the people of this area, which is the KBK Kalahandi Balangir Koraput belt in Orissa, started taking the seeds of mangoes, putting it into muddy water, and making a soup of it That, because it was so hot, started becoming rotten And so it was a… a rotten mango gruel that was prepared, and because they were so hungry and no mother can see her child starve, they were poisoning themselves to death because they were so hungry they had to eat something In my life, I remember, at that time, as a reporter, I stood outside gat number one of Parliament I was so angry, and I confronted the then food minister who said to me that ‘In such a big country, if twenty, thirty people die, you people make a big issue out of it’ and I was shocked and horrified Sadhguru Till this date I feel, and people say to me, “Why do you scream so much?” I say, “Because in this country, you don’t yell, you don’t scream, nobody gives a damn.” I still do believe that in this country We believe in that taken for granted attitude because we think everything’s okay with us, why should we care about the rest of the world? We are growing, but the chasm in our country is also growing – between the rich and the poor, between the haves and the have-nots, between those who have everything and those who don’t have any shelter and yet we feel happy enough to cut ourselves off from it Is it true that we spend a large amount of our time cutting ourselves off from our own country? Is this not one of the greatest problems of India today that we, the privileged sections of India, have cut ourselves off from the rest of India, and is there a solution for it? Sadhguru: See, the question is not about the disconnect between the well-to-do and not-so-well-to-do, or the impoverished regions of our nation We are…We have not invested enough in the fundamental nature of our humanity We’ve become many things other than being human If you sat here as just a human being, it would be very natural for you that your heart beats for everything around you But now you’ve become so many things – starting from gender, language, culture, religion, race, ethnicity – in many ways we have identified ourselves Because of these identities, these all these identities give you a certain sense that you can undermine your humanity

You cannot undermine your humanity if you did not have these identities, or if you did not give it too much priority You All of us have those identities at a certain level – cultural identities are there, language identities are there, but they are not fundamental to us Our fundamental nature is that we are life If you sat here as life, you would reverberate with every life, nobody had to tell you – you would be that way, but that has not happened That is because we are a amoral country – we’ve never had codes of morality in this nation We have always managed populations because in every generation there were enlightened beings, hundreds of them! And so we managed human consciousness in a certain way By making people conscious, we manage situations in a beautiful way Wherever those people did not come, or not enough were there, there anarchy happened, chaos happened because we have never had a set of morality because morality makes you act, but doesn’t transform you For example, I’m…I’m sorry, I’m not commenting on the team of the club For example, the word service, leaving the theme of this See, it’s like this – if you Let’s say there is a child starved out on the street If you pick up the child and feed this child and take care of this child, you think it is service But if you pick up your own child and do that, you don’t think it is service What is the difference, I’m asking? For one, your heart is beating, for the other it is not So, the bareness of heart is the basis of all this We’re always trying to do good You don’t have to goo…do any good, you just have to become a full-fledged human being A full-fledged human being means a natural, conscious response to everything, and what best you could do, you could do And that’s all a man can do that you are at your best always, to everybody and everything Are you doing the greatest? Maybe not, but I am doing my best If every human does their best, in every sphere of life, with every life that they come in touch with, something will happen But above all, this is a more large-scale problem that there is lack of planning, lot of… lack of policy, lack of corrections, and irresponsible population explosion In 1947 we were only 33 crores Today we are 120 crores, or 25 crores Four times over in seventy years is irresponsible reproduction This is not because we have over-reproduced We must understand this In 1947, a… the average life expectancy of an Indian was only twenty-eight years Today we are reaching somewhere sixty-three, sixty-four, which is a great achievement We should further push it, but on an average, a woman used to go into pregnancy when she was fourteen, fifteen, or sixteen Today we have pushed it to something like nineteen, twenty is the average when they’re getting pregnant So by the time she is sixty-five or seventy, there are four generations behind her, or three generations behind her and one or two generations ahead of her That means right now, in many families, there are five generations living This is not good This is very brutal what I am saying, I know, but at any time there is space only for three generations – your parents, yourself, and your children There can’t be five generations living That’s what is happening right now in this country and in many other places, especially in this country Five generations are living, so there is no space Once there is such a load, people will keep their humanity in the attic and go about brutally That child who comes and knocks on your traffic space, I would cry at one time Now I’m trying to look down because every time I don’t have money to pull out Most of the time I don’t have, I have to ask the driver who’s driving, “Please give me some money” (Laughs) So I try to look down So you’re trying to put down your humanity for some time, but it would be natural for me to pull out whatever I have and give it to him, but now you can’t do it because it’s everywhere It’s… It’s too much of a problem for you to address individually Wherever you can do, whatever you can do, you do, but you’re not able to address everything Slowly, you try to insulate your humanity This is what is happening It is not that people have become brutal, it’s not that people have become inhuman – because the problem is so pervasive, you’re not able to address it

Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Has hate increased after Trump? Sadhguru: Hmm? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Has hate increased after Trump (Laughter)? Sadhguru: It has not increased It is just that it’s little emboldened It’s not increased I spent substantial time in United States, in and out, it was always there Now it is finding expression, but I think that’s a temporary upsurge I think it’ll control itself, law… law enforcement will take charge After some time they’ll pick up a few people, handle that, but hate crimes have been happening all the time in America Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Has Europe invited trouble on itself? You know, it’s opened the doors There’s been a lot of immigration Sadhguru: They have not opened doors They have closed all the doors, they’ve built fences Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Now they are Sadhguru: They’re just not allowing the media near the fences anymore, or media also is part of it They don’t go near the fences, they only shoot the open spaces (Laughs) Their cameras don’t pick up the fences Most nations have put up barbed-wire fences wherever the migrants could come, and they’ve stopped, all right? You can’t blame them either because they’re coming in millions If millions of new people come with a completely different cunture culture, a religion which they will not compromise, and they will not fit into your society, they will try to create their own society, local people will feel insecure It’s… See, it is it is a multi-headed problem, it’s not a simple problem So this is why… I’m saying, for all these Azadi groups also, the moment you break the fabric of any nation – it doesn’t matter how fragile, how ramshackle it is, the moment you break it, what comes out of it is such a thing that you cannot control it See, if you had not bombed out these nations, if you had not bombed out Iraq, Syria, Lybia, Afghanistan, wherever, if you had not done that If you had negotiated and settled those problems to whatever extent – you can’t fix all the problems, at least you could have contained the problems If you had done that, these people would not be moving to Europe Tch, somehow they would continue to live because nobody wants to leave their place of birth, and their parentage and everything just for nothing When it became terrible, they want to go But once the momentum starts The things that I’ve seen in Europe, I cannot utter here, it’s terrible, what these migrants are doing to themselves to earn just one meal is too horrible The women are all on the streets, all kinds of people – with children and everything they’re on the streets selling themselves because there is no other way to make a living It’s These are all people who lived reasonably well Reasonably well means maybe not in… in the same level of economic well-being as the Western Europe, but they lived with some dignity, with some pride in their own lands I drove from Beirut, to Damascus, to the Iraqi border, I just drove myself through the desert and fantastic country it was just seven years ago, you know really nice country Particularly this city…Aleppo City, which is an 8000-year-old city This city was built on taxes levied on Indian traders So you must assume what is the level of trade that was happening between India and Damascus and Jerusalem was such, just by the taxes that the Indian traders paid, they built a city, a living city, 8000 years old – one of the most beautiful cities, if you ask me Today when I see on the news channels, Aleppo, it’s What is it? Is this a solution for anybody? So, you may have Whatever, people earn Nobel Peace prizes, but this is the kind of solutions they offer to the world There was no need to do these things There was a way to negotiate Because of this simplistic, moralistic attitude that you have that this is a good guy, this is a bad guy – this is basic stuff – good guy, bad guy business and millions of people Over a million are dead, over 10 to 15 million are homeless Nobody is counting these numbers, really, properly, but what’s happened to Aleppo when I see on the screens, I can’t believe it This is a city that I enjoyed so much just seven years ago, and the people were so wonderful Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I’m… I’m… I’m not quite sure You know, you… you quickly passed through my question when I asked about when happened in America and you glanced it through, and you said that’s it’s a… it’s a temporary phenomenon I… I personally… Sadhguru… S (Overlapping conversation)

Sadhguru: No, I’m saying I’m saying nothing has changed as the news channels are trying to project that suddenly America has changed, become a cauldron of hate It’s not true Generally there is a racial discrimination in the country, all of us face it somewhere or the other, especially me (Laughs) I’ve not been shot at yet, but people have given me daggers (Laughs) And so many things happen there It’s… We just say, “Okay, this is how this country is and go on.” There’s… America has the most beautiful aspects of life also, and very extremely negative aspects also because this is that kind of a melting pot – all kinds of people Now, those people… some of those people are feeling emboldened and they think they can act, but I’m telling you, they were acting even before How many hate crimes have happened? Recently, in the last one-two years you must have seen all these black people being shot in many places – they put it on the Facebook live and all that stuff – but this has been happening all the time Suddenly, because of the Facebook, you think it’s happening – no, it’s been happening all the time, now the world knows Otherwise, the people who live there, they always know this happens all the time Just look back at the statistics – let’s in nine… in 2016, 2015, how many Indians, how many blacks, how many Hispanics have been killed? I don’t think the numbers have changed, the reporting has changed Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): You’re blaming the media for that? Sadhguru: I’m not blaming the media Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): You’re not blaming Trump (Sadhguru laughs) You’re not blaming Trump, but you’re blaming the media for that I… I think… I think Trump _____ (Unclear) as such Sadhguru: See, n… No, no, I’m… I… I’m saying, yes, definitely his presence has emboldened them, but I’m saying nobody needs to embolden them, they have been always doing it Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Yeah Sadhguru: Maybe now they’re uttering the words, they’re not afraid of uttering the words because they think in the highest office there is support Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Sadhguru, now, let’s look at a few issues that you have raised in the last three minutes You say that, you know, there must be a better solution, there must be no confrontation Non-violence is not always the answer Sadhguru: No Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I would argue Sadhguru: Yes Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): You know, it… it’s okay to say, it’s n… it doesn’t deliver results Sadhguru: No Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): In your view, can non-violence be an answer? For example, to Jihadi terrorism? Sadhguru: Not at all Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): So if not so, then what I would like you to tell this audience is, dealing with one of the greatest individual constructs of problems in the world today, which is Jihadi terrorism, in your view Sadhguru, what is the direct antidote to Jihadi terrorism, an immediate and quick solution to it? Sadhguru: What is the direct antidote – that’s what I’m doing, that’s my work, but quick solution, I don’t have one (Laughs) There’s no quick solution Individual transformation is the only solution, but that’s not a quick solution, but a lasting solution Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): What is your What is the solution to it? Let me rephrase that – what is the solution to it? Sadhguru: I’m saying Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): How do you deal with it? If you were a world leader Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): … Sadhguru, which you are in your own way, but if you were a political leader, facing the problem of Jihadi terrorism, what would you do to take a turn? Sadhguru: See, we must understand this – though nobody wants to spell it out, nobody wants to say it – it is written – not in one – in many religious books across the world, it is written clearly, “Those who are not like you deserve to be killed.” Let’s come to the point I know this may bring things upon myself, but it’s okay Not in any one book, in many books it is written clearly – those who do not believe the same things that I believe must die, they are fit to die, they’re unfit to live here This is clearly there So because people are claiming it is the word of god, they don’t have the courage to amend the book It is time that you take sensible part of people who believe in these books and say, “See, if you edit these ten pages, your book will become wonderful” (Laughs) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): The boys who… The boys who carried out the Dhaka attack came from very, very elite families Some of them spoke accented English, they simply wore black robes, called themselves ISIS, went into a café and shot innocent people When a philosophy as dangerous as that, and I wouldn’t use the w… term philosophy When a belief as dangerous as that becomes as viral, as potent, it grows organically, ISIS then becomes a thought process, not even a terrorist organization Then, how do you deal with it? Sadhguru: I…

I need to correct that question a bit It is not organic – it is very organized Till you address this, you will not address the problem It is very, very organized So if anything that’s organized, it has a source If you have any kind of administrative strength and skills, when you see something threatens the fabric of the society, you must know where is the source for these organizations and deal with it, but we don’t have the courage to deal with it because every six months we got an election Okay? Every six months or eight months there is an election going on somewhere and because of the (Laughs) – this I’ll blame on you – because of 24×7 channels, some election is happening in Manipur, it feels like a national election is happening In Tamil Nadu everybody is sitting and watching Manipuri elections (Laughs) because it’s made to feel like there’s election going on, and when they’re… when politicians are in election mode, you don’t expect responsible action It is expected because this is the nature of democracy That is the time of hyperbole, but that should be only once in five years I think we are working towards that, that’s a good thing – that elections will be only once in five years and that’s how it should be because it is not that they’re all bad, but these are the compulsions of a democracy When you When you go into an election campaign, you cannot say, “I am taking this economic step, this economic step, this economic step” because the crowd there doesn’t understand any of these things, you have to rev up their passion about something So in that mode, you can’t fix a nation So this is not organic, let’s be very clear about this This is super organized It has grown everywhere in the world with a tremendous sense of organization Where there is an organization, there is always a head and if you know how to administer a nation, you must know how to handle this Questioner (Rahul Mera): So, one observation Sadhguru, which is an… and a comment, probably you haven’t seen “Oh My God” (Referring to a Bollywood movie) You… You need to have… You need to have a look at that because to get all the spiritual gurus in India under one platform never happens It only happens when you scare, and since you’re using the word screwed up, I’ll use the word sh… when you… when you scare the shit out of them But coming to the serious part of it, you know, I… I consider you and you know, I want to give a disclaimer I really don’t… I have a spiritual sense within me, but I don’t really follow any spiritual guru And… And therefore, when… when, you know, when I actually went through internet and… and heard a few of your interviews in conversation, I found in you a very logical person, a person who is practical, a person who is scientific in his answers, and therefore, you know, there was a connect But there were two things which actually broke that connect, and there’s a disconnect and I hope you can mend that today – which is, when you talked about, and… and maybe I’d got it wrong, so therefore, you know, if you… if you could just kindly explain what you meant by that That certain women don’t need to enter certain temples, or maybe women in certain temples need to no… you know, need to stay out So that’s one And the other is the recent one where in jallikattu – you talked about fundamental rights of animals and every… birds and everything – but in jallikattu you supported the… the other side of it So, why was this? And since it was kept political by Arnab, most part of it, and I think many of us out here were wanting to hear the spiritual side of you So I’m… I’m following it up with a… with a… with a political question Sadhguru: See, we must understand this There are two reasons – those people who are propagating certain things and also there is a certain unfortunate discriminatory process But essentially, culturally, this nation – before invasions and other things happened, this nation did not have a big discriminatory process between men and women You look back on the ancient societies here, there was absolutely no discrimination Most of the country was matriarchal They obviously, because this is You must understand, many things today are common between men and women not because of liberalism, simply because of technology Technology has leveled the ground in many ways Your muscle doesn’t mean as much as it meant a thousand years ago

When human beings were doing everything with their body, man’s muscles were important So he dominated the world in a certain way Once technology came, your muscles if you have lot of muscles, we’ll give you a menial job, we’re not going to make you the boss here So because of that, things changed slowly But in the spiritual dimension of this country, there never was any discrimination You must understand, if you don’t know this, as per the Hindu norms, a Hindu man cannot go to heaven without his wife How nice is that (Few laugh)! There are no other Apsara and other whatever, they’re not waiting there You have to go there with your wife You decide whether you want to go to heaven or not – that’s up to you (Laughter) – but a Hindu man cannot go to heaven without his wife next to him She has to be there So these are different ways this society addressed this, but when the invasions happened, particularly, first thing that they’re going for is your wife and your daughter That’s the first thing that people will take away, and it’s the most disgraceful thing and the most painful thing So they all hid them in the granaries of the time, and when continuously these raids were ravaging the society, slowly, “Don’t step out of the house” became a norm because generation after generation, the raids kept on happening So – there’re many historical aspects, leave that – about the temple entry, there is no such thing anywhere that a woman should not enter the temple because she is a woman, you understand? It is just that, certain temples, they are doing certain occult work, there are certain forces there (Laughs) I… I… I’ve… I have to talk about biology One thing is mountain temples, we said women should not go because you must understand, those were days – this is a tiger land When I say tiger land, today the poor tiger has to be protected as if it’s a pussy cat (Few laugh) Those days they prowled in thousands Going into the jungle and coming back alive is a big thing If you don’t know this, even today there is a practice that if people…tribal people, walk in the jungle, though there are not so many tigers anymore, they will take some incense and walk because they don’t want the wild animals to smell them There is sambrani in the South Indian temp Do you know what’s sambrani? What do you call it north? Sambrani only, right? Participant: Sambrani Sadhguru: Yeah, either they burn it or they smear it on their body and walk so that the wild animals…the carnivorous animals cannot smell you It is no more relevant because there’re not so many left, but at that time it was really tiger country So the very nature of woman’s biology is such that a carnivorous animal will always smell out a woman much more easily than a man, especially at… at certain times of the month, it will definitely smell it… smell her out So they said, “Mountain temples she should not go.” All the mountain temples, they’re restricted Now those things are gone, women are equipped in a different way than the way they were at that time and the wildlife is scant, it is very much possible to go The other kind of temples where they were asked not to go were, where they’re doing occult work When they’re doing occult work, I’m telling you, whether you like it or you don’t like, maybe you’re liberal, but you don’t know the fundamentals of nature The nature is such that when you do certain occult work, a woman is more susceptible to damage herself in such situation than a man Even for a man, if there is any injury in the body, they won’t let him into that place where they’re doing occult because it will affect him So, this was done with a certain care and concern, not as a discrimination Today you’re taking it up as a political activism and thinking everybody should go to everywhere it’s fine Then the thing is you should not do that kind of work because it’ll be harmful Even today in this country, if a woman is in early stage of pregnancy, we won’t allow her to come to the funerals Do you know this? It is a very sensible thing to do It is not discrimination It is protection, not just for the woman, but for the child that she carries it’s very, very important If you do not look at life the way it is, how the life forces function, how it is best for us to be, and if you just talk about social equality, social equality, then you will do silly things which will only, in the end, make the women suffer But now it’s become political activism Probably those temples are not doing any occult of any great strength,

so maybe it doesn’t matter, that’s a different matter But if you’re talking politics, if you’re talking about equality, there are only two places where you should be even concerned whether somebody is a man or a woman What is in somebody’s pants is not your business Only in bedrooms and bathrooms you must be concerned about these things Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Sadhguru, if I may Completely, totally, thousand percent disagree with you I… I have… You know, in this country, the problem has been that a lot of people take upon themselves the responsibility of protecting women and Sadhguru: Tch, tch, tch, tch This is… This is not like that Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): … no, no, let me give you my perspective Sadhguru You see, in this country of ours, at one point of time, it was also told that sati (Referring to a funeral custom where a widow immolates herself on her husband’s pyre or commits suicide in another fashion shortly after her husband’s death) is tradition So we must understa Sadhguru: Shall I… Shall I clear that? Now you raised something, shall I clear that? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, no, can I… Can I… Ca… No, no, I… Let me complete the… Let me complete the pa… Let me complete the _____ (Unclear) Sadhguru: Okay (Laughter) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): The second point is, there are no tigers who are going to eat women when they go to Shani Shingnapur or Sabarimala By your own argument, there was a rationale you say for not letting women – a logical rationale – for not letting women into temples earlier That rationale doesn’t exist today Sadhguru: It doesn’t That’s what I’m saying Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): So then change… So then change the rules which have been created Sadhguru: I… I am saying just that – where it comes from and where, when situations change, we have to change the norms accordingly That’s what I’m saying Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, no Sadhguru, see here, look at how unfair this is In this country there are women who can be divorced on Whatsapp (Sadhguru laughs) on triple talaq on Whatsapp Sadhguru: That’s another matter (Laughs) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, it’s the same matter In this country we must understand the sensibilities of people today They are going to question what is injustice Sadhguru: Definitely Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): A woman is being kept out of a temple because she is told that she is impure Sadhguru: Che che Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): By the definition of what is pure and impure, if it doesn’t apply in today’s context Sadhguru: No, no, no Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): …in today’s context, then we need to give voice to that All I’m saying to you Sadhguru is another point of polite disagreement with you and we will never agree on this point Sadhguru: No, no, we will come We’ll come to the agreement disagreement Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, no but things have changed I know this personally Sadhguru I have some understanding of the pulse of this country We did a campaign called the ‘right to pray.’ I wish Sadhguru you were there with me when phone lines were opened, when people – men, women, children – from all over the country called up and said what happens in Shani Shignapur, Haji Ali or Sabarimala is unfair That is a perspective which must be understood, that’s all I’m saying Sadhguru: See, please if you The thing is, I know (Overlapping conversation) I know you are in a certain profession where you only ask questions, but you must listen to what I’m saying (Laughter/Applause) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, I Sadhguru Sadhguru Sadhguru Sadhguru let me tell you one thing No, no, no just one Sadhguru: No, no let me finish You asked a question, right? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, no, no, Sadhguru, let me tell you one thing, please understand that the logic is also understood by people and the right to question what is wrong is essential to my profession Sadhguru: Yes Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): The day I stop questioning what is wrong Sadhguru: I’m not questioning that Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): …then I will not be true to my profession Sadhguru: I’m not questioning that, but I’m telling you, please because what is simple basic logic and in how many ways life happens are two different things Whatever we did to protect from wildlife and stuff is not relevant anymore because women are not in the same condition, they’re equipped in many different ways Going up to hill temples would be very much possible, that’s not a issue at all But where there is genuine occult, I would still not send my daughter there or anybody that I know because this even for a man if he’s in a certain condition, it’ll affect him if he’s not of a certain nature, but woman is much more susceptible to this Is such a thing happening in the temple or not, is a questionable thing but this is not about protecting women from somebody, because this is the nature of our biology, we cannot ignore it, all right? Now, talking about Sati, nobody can endorse such a thing Talking about three words will dismantle your marriage, because three words may happen in moments of anger and disagreement and something and it’s over, this is (Laughs) another thing altogether Sati as a thing came up again when only when men were killed in battle When men were killed in battle, when other people entered the towns, what happened to the women was worse than death Because of that, they got into this mode – if… when my husband who is a soldier dies, I kill myself because what happens after that is worse than death So that came from that and somebody exploited and stretched it Well, we stopped that reasonably, I think almost almost totally stopped that, that’s a different thing If you think I’m speaking for not equality of women, it’s (Laughs) I don’t want to say anything, I don’t want to defend that because

my life is not about looking at someone as man and woman As I said (Applause) only only in a certain context of our life we have to recognize the gender of a person Rest of the time, why should be even recognize the gender of a person? A human being is a human being Only in certain aspects of our life, somebody is a man, somebody is a woman All the time thinking, “I am a man, you are a woman”, is drives to madness Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I’ll make this pass but I’ll just make one observation If you say you have to enter heaven with your wife, you can enter heaven with your wife but you can’t enter a particular temple with your wife, I don’t think that’s fair Sadhguru: No, no, no, no, no, no Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I… take the next question Sadhguru Sadhguru: No, you can’t have the last word on that (Overlapping conversation) You can’t have the last word I’m I only mentioned the heaven business not because I believe there is a heaven No, no, I did not talk about the heaven because I think there is a heaven and you’re going to heaven I know you’re not going to any such place (Laughter) but I am saying the source the society and the culture tried to control the natural urge for a man to dominate the woman with these kind of things That’s all I said Questioner: Sadhguru, you talked about self-enrichment and self-consciousness, you were gonna give us some tools I think we all got distracted, none of us have heard about the tools that you could offer us (Applause) Sadhguru: See, it’s like this The nature of your existence, your experience and your perception is right now like this You know that you are here right now because you can see, you can hear, you can smell, you can taste and you can touch Suppose right now you just dozed off a little bit You’re still very alive and everything is going on here but if you doze off a little bit, the first thing is I will disappear for sure If you doze some more, everybody will disappear If you go more, even you will disappear This is the nature of human experience Simply because the five sense organs have shut down, suddenly the world is obliterated, even you are obliterated Or in other words, your entire experience of life right now is limited to five sense organs These sense organs, in the very nature of things cannot see anything the way it is, they can only see everything in comparison You know what is light only because you know darkness You know what is sound only because you know silence You know this only because of that, because See, right now if I touch this, my hand says this cup is cool No, it is not so It is because of the way my body temperature is, I’m thinking this is cool If I lower my body temperature and touch this, this would be warm to me So your entire perception is by comparison Perception by comparison is good enough for survival process, it is not good enough for knowing the nature of life It will help you to survive in the world – these five sense organs will help you to survive in the world but it will not give you any sense about what this life is about So if you have to know life the way it is, not the way it’s projected to be When I say, “Not the way it is projected to be”, see right now let’s say you’re six feet tall, now in this society you stand like a tall man, you walk like a tall man, you feel like a tall man, you are a tall man You went to another society where everybody is eight feet tall, suddenly you feel like a short man, stand like a starnstesh… short man, walk like one and feel like on and you are one, isn’t it? So what you know by comparison is only good enough for survival in a given situation It is not good enough instruments to know life in its essence So if you want to know something more, you have to enhance your perception Right now, everything that you carry in your mind as information is all this comparisons and half bits and pieces When I say bits and pieces, right now you can see this (Gestures) part of my hand that means you cannot see this part of my hand (Gestures) This’s not just with my hand, even if you take a grain of sand, you can…if you see one part, you cannot see the other part This is the nature of human perception (Laughs) When When this question came up, when Arnab asked this question some time ago, when I was a child, I stared and stared, trying to bend my perception around this because I saw I can see only part of it How to see the other part? You wouldn’t believe this, by the time I was eleven years of age,

I would walk in the jungle – alone, by myself – for three to four days, till my bread lasted, alone and I learned to see in the dark, absolutely, as good as the animals and not just walking, I caught dozens of snakes in the dark They couldn’t believe that I can see as good as them but I could pick them up because it is just a question of enhancing your perception and a human being is capable of this because in this on this planet, we have the most evolved neurological system But because of cerebral activity which is new (Laughs) I mean evolutionary scale it is a new happening, because of that we’re too enamored with our thought and emotion, we don’t feel so many things But actually you have a better neurological system than any creature on this planet, do you agree with me? But if you want to smell something out, you’ll bring a dog If you want something else, you’ll look at something else, because they don’t have this thought process, they’re able to just be keen on how they perceive their senses But human being’s ability to sense anything has gone down because they are completely going on with their own thought – their own thought and emotion keeps them busy for their entire life Their psychological reality has overshadowed their existential reality This is the biggest problem So when we talk about life, we are not talking about a psychological space Today if you say life if somebody says, “My life”, you are supposed to think he’s talking about his work, he’s talking about his family, he’s talking about his car, he’s talking about his wealth, he’s not talking about life Life means this, what is throbbing inside and keeping this alive right now This is life, isn’t it? But when people say life, you’re supposed to understand that he’s not talking about life, he’s actually talking about his job or wealth or money or business or something because your idea of life has become purely survival The idea of evolution or the possibility of this evolution is that a human being is capable of rising beyond their survival process This is the reason why survival doesn’t fulfill you For every other creature, their survival requirements are taken care of, they’re just fine, they have no other issue Eating, sleeping, reproducing, their life is complete Till these things happen to you, you think these are big things but once they happen to you, they don’t mean anything You want something more to happen If that something more happens, you want something more If that something more happens, you want something more If you look at this, what you want is not more, what you want is all And if you want all, you should not go by extending physical boundaries because physical can never be all, isn’t it? You’re Unknowingly, you’re desiring for the infinite but you think you will get there by counting 1 2 3 4 5 No, you will only become endless counting You will only become endless counting Now, because we are looking at everything in comparison, in many ways we have fragmented the world, even our own species between men and women and everything and everything is divided because we are perceiving everything through sense perception, we don’t have a life perception So if you have to transcend the limitations of your senses – it is not that senses are bad, without that you wouldn’t even know that you exist, senses are fundamental, without it you cannot survive – but once you’re human, survival is not good enough, something more needs to happen For that something more, some striving is needed You must look at this properly Anything in your life which is about survival has come to you just naturally See, suppose you got lost in a jungle as an infant – no contact with any human society – something edible came in front of you, would you first try your ears, then your nostrils, then your eyes and accidentally find your mouth? No Anything concerned with survival, you just know, isn’t it? But you wouldn’t know how to read, how to write, language, this, that, many other things you would not know because anything beyond survival will not come to you unless you strive for it So, to turn inward, that means Why I’m saying turn inward is because these sense organs are essentially outward bound but the experience of your life is happening from within you Do you see me? Hello, all of you? Do you see me? Even if you’re not listening to me, it’s okay, but do you see me (Laughter)?

Can you use one hand and point out where I am? Tch, you got it all wrong, you know I’m a mystic (Laughter)? Now, this light is falling upon me, reflecting, going through your lenses, inverted image in the retina, you know the entire story? So where do you see me? You see me within yourself Where do you hear me? You hear me within yourself Where have you seen the whole world? Within yourself Everything that ever happened to you – light and darkness happens within you, pain and pleasure happens within you, joy and misery happens within you, agony and ecstasy happens within you – just about anything that ever happened to you, happened only within you You have never experienced anything outside of you Right now if somebody touches your hand, you think you’re experiencing their hand, no you’re only experiencing the sensations in your hand, isn’t it? Now your entire experience is within When it is so, what happens from within at least what happens within you must happen the way you want it, isn’t it? If you happen just the way you want it, would you keep yourself in the highest level of pleasantness or unpleasantness? Pleasantness The choice for yourself is definitely pleasantness, what you want for your neighbor may be debatable but what you want for yourself is very, very clear But that one thing is not happening Why I’m talking about pleasantness is, there is substantial medical and scientific evidence today that if you remain pleasant, without a moment of anger, anxiety, irritation, agitation, nothing, for twenty-four hours if you remain like this, they are saying your ability to use your intelligence can go up by hundred percent – in twenty-four hours’ time! So pleasantness or joy or bliss is not a goal by itself, it is a fundamental necessity, in the sense, only if your experience of life is pleasant, and if there is no fear of suffering, will you walk full stride, otherwise fear of suffering will always cripple you in so many ways But today it’s become like this, people… well even spiritual leaders are going about talking, saying that ‘peace of mind is the ultimate goal of life.’ Such people will only rest in peace (Laughter) I was to speak in Tel Aviv And I’m flying out of Atlanta in United States and I’m to land there at eleven in the morning and speak at 6:30 in the evening I end up landing there because of some flight delays at six in the evening So I’m quickly changing in the airport because in these thirty-five years I’ve not been late to a single event or appointment I’ve managed this always (Applause) So I’m rushing and I am famished I’m super hungry because I’m flying an American airline, there’s nothing edible on that plane (Laughter) But I don’t have a moment to grab something so I just went straight and to my amazement I found I’m speaking at a fine restaurant That doesn’t happen at all to me (Laughs) I thought this is it When I’m so hungry, this is the place to go And people are already coming in, some people greeting me and one man comes and says ‘Shalom.’ I ask him, “What does it mean?” He says, “This is the highest way of greeting.” I said, “Well, that’s your opinion, what does that mean?” He said, “No, no this is really the highest way of greeting.” “All right, but what does the word mean?” He says, “It means peace.” Then I say, “Why is peace the highest way of greeting, unless you’re born in Middle East” (Laughter)? You come in South India, in the morning you come and say, “Peace!” I’ll say, “What’s wrong with you, eh” (Laughter)? I’m saying if you deprive yourself of something for long enough, suddenly slowly it’ll rise to heaven If you’ve not eaten for five days, let you say let us say your favorite god appeared, what will you ask? Food? Food will raise to heaven Everything that you don’t have, will raise to heaven Being peaceful, it’s not the ultimate goal of life, it is the most fundamental requirement Today if you want to enjoy your dinner, if not ecstatic, at least you must be peaceful, isn’t it? If you wanna take a walk on the street and enjoy it, you must at least be peaceful If you want to live with these handful of people in your family, you must at least be peaceful if not ecstatic, isn’t it? If you want to enjoy the few things that you do in your life, the most fundamental thing basic requirement is at least you’re peaceful

But today people are saying it is the ultimate goal of life – ‘peace of mind.’ That’s never going to happen, because they have not understood the simplest aspects of life For example, your mind Can we? Participants: Yes Sadhguru: The simplest aspect It’s like this, because people are falling out of scriptures, this is the biggest problem I was about to tell a joke but Arnab was serious (Laughs) This happened in Tennessee You know we our center in United States is in Tennessee, it’s a hardcore religious place People said, “Sadhguru, you’ll get killed in no time.” But we’re flourishing in Tennessee, doing very well because they can’t figure out who I am (Laughs) I go out to this… into this little town and I’m new there and I’m smiling at everybody and greeting people on the street – small little town One big man, over six feet tall, this wide (Gestures) comes and stands just six inches away from me, looks down on me like this (Gestures) and said, “God loves us.” I look at… up at him and say, “The way you are, only god can love you” (Laughter) He has to love the mistakes he has made (Laughter) Before he realized – he takes time to get things, by then I’m gone of course So in Tennessee, every family has a huge Bible Not small, big ones This big (Gestures) Leather bound The bigger the family…The richer the family, the bigger the size of the Bible Almost every home has Ten Commandments carved on the stone Most of it goes from South India, these carvings (Laughs) So it’s good business I watched this and I say, “Okay, it’s good for our economy, commandments or no commandments” (Laughs) So, this little boy, eight-year-old boy went to school in on East Coast and came back home in the vacation So he was just flipping through this big book and a dry leaf fell out The boy started screaming, “Momma! Momma! See what I’ve found.” His mother said, “What have you found my son?” He said, “Just come and see what I’ve found!” So the mother came running to see what Then he pointed at the leaf and said, “Adam’s underwear” (Laughter)! So a lot of people, the reason why something so simple and life-oriented has become complicated is because people are falling out of scriptures What is it that makes you think 1000, 2000, 5000 years ago people were far more intelligent than you and me? Why is it so? Is it not such a retroga… grade step that you think people 1000, 2000, 5000 years were much smarter than you and me? Is it so? Is it line with the evolutionary process I’m asking? No But this is the thing we want to change Today with everything around us, we handle it scientifically, using various technologies It is equally important that you handle your inner nature scientifically, in a logically correct manner and with tools Now your thing is, “Give me the tools.” These are subjective in nature If it was a screwdriver, I would’ve come with a bagful and given it to you This is subjective What is subjective means, it is something within Right now, everything of you is outward That is, all your five senses are outward bound, isn’t it? You cannot turn them inward You can’t roll your eyeballs inward and scan yourself You can hear this (Clicks fingers), so much activity here, you cannot hear this An ant crawls upon this hand, you can feel it, so much blood flowing, you cannot feel it In the very nature of things, your sense organs are outward bound If you want genuine tools of transformation, I would say if you dedicate twenty-eight to thirty hours of focused time, okay? Twenty-eight to thirty hours of focused time, we will give you tools to experience or touch a dimension which is inward Inward is not of thought, inward is not contemplation What you call as mind and body is very outward because body is something that you accumulated over a period of time from outside, isn’t it? The soil that you walk upon is what is sitting here as the body If you get it now from me, your life will transform, otherwise one day you will get it from the maggots Yes (Laughs)

What you call as, “My mind”, is also an accumulation of impressions that we have taken in This is accumulation of food, this is accumulation of impressions But between these two heaps of impressions and food, somewhere there is something else which is which makes all this happen If that comes into your living experience, then you will not need any guidance from anybody To get you there, I’m asking not twelve years of sadhana, I’m asking thirty hours of focused time You must do that much to yourself You deserve that (Applause) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Thank you Questioner: Sadhguru, my question to you You know, when we think of bringing reforms to our religion and we all are taught that in vedas it’s written that soul has no gender and so you know, we saw this Sati pratha being abolished and we saw widow remarriage also so why don’t you all as Arnab was saying, think about the entry of women in temples? Sadhguru: Fundamentally in this society there is no such thing as discrimination There are more Devi temples in the country than anything else Every village has it But certain temples have taken this position, mainly hill temples This’s as I said because of a certain reason in the past It has to change now, no question about that But if there are occult temples, even if they allow you, I please beg the women, please don’t go there By law if you are allowed, by norm if you’re allowed, still you should not go there, if you have any sense Questioner: Yeah, so my question is to both Sadhguruji as well as Arnab – what’s your view on our leader, Prime Minister and (Laughter) I would like to ask both of you, Sadhguruji if you are the Prime Minister tomorrow, what is one change which you would like to bring in our country Sadhguru: Well, I’m not planning to getting into the parliament either (Laughter) About my opinion about a leader – see I’m not a member of any political party, nor am I a fan of any political leader (Pauses) nor am I a fan of any political leader, but I have to say this – I’m politically conscious maybe for the last nearly fifty years now I’ve been reading newspapers for fifty years, so – in this I find now it looks like we have the most determined leadership ever (Applause) Are they right, are they wrong? You It’s not for me to take a call whether they’re right or wrong At least India is topmost on their mind This is very heartening for me And Because I have I’ve been in certain situations with variety of political leaders in the past, it… it always scared me that for twenty-four hours if you are with them, they don’t have one single thought on their mind, today what they can do for this country, sitting in such a responsible position, which… which kind of you know, really shook me How is it somebody that is heading a nation with such a huge population and a million problems doesn’t think today what can be done? At least today you have a leadership where nation is on the topmost in their mind But do we have to agree with everything that they do? Not necessarily Can we disagree with them? One hundred percent we can if what is being done is not right for the country Arnab spoke about this pride Today morning also where I was, I was telling them, “Nation is an idea Without bringing pride and emotion towards that, you’re not going to make it happen.” This is a crime we’ve committed In 1947 when there was a euphoria of emotion and thing for the nation, people are willing to die for it, that was the time to enshrine the nation in everybody’s hearts We should not We did not do that

We had fanciful ideas and we kind of We We did not know what to do probably In retrospect, in… in the in postmortem we can say many things, we don’t know what was their mindset and what was happening, whatever, they lost control over that, they lost that opportunity Whenever there is strife in a nation that is the time when you can once again reshape a country When people are comfortable, unfortunately, most people will not be conscious We have to build a humanity which will be in utmost comfort and still conscious That is when we re… really build a good nation But still we are in a place where unless we are in a strife, we are not conscious of the larger well-being of what needs to happen So, in many ways, today even if there’s no real strife on the street, there is strife Arnab is going to be active in two months Small issues – when I say small, I’m not saying small in significance, I’m sayings small in size See, a child falls into a tube-well, it is small in size but not small in significance A life is a life, okay? If it is my life, it’s significant, so it is… the same way it’s significant for everybody’s life It may be small in size, but it is significant for what it is So, like this there are a thousand issues in the country and for the first time we have mediums through which all these issues can enter everybody’s heads and everybody can think about it, so there is strife There is going to be strife in this country When I say strife, don’t think something has to happen on the street, no It needs to happen Strife needs to happen in people’s hearts and minds So that is anyway going to happen When this is happening, this is the time to build that sense of pride But pride should not become prejudice It’s very important To build that pride in who we are and not developing prejudice against those who we think are not a part of us To…This is a a very subtle process which needs to be done – can is there some ideal way of doing it? No We will have to mess around with it It is That’s the only way it will happen But we are A new generation is coming – young people – whose thought process, whose way of looking at life has changed in many ways Today for the first time in the history of humanity, more human beings are able to think for themselves than ever before Whether they’re thinking right or wrong is not the debate but they’re thinking At one time, a scripture would think for you, a guru would think for you, an elder would think for you, one man in the village would think for you, today everybody is beginning to think for themselves Once this happens, people will become in such a way, unless something is logically correct, they cannot swallow it If you make them swallow it, they cannot digest it This will happen Right now you are still a generation who’s still willing to acknowledge an authority and try to digest something which is not logically correct But your children will be such, even if god comes and speaks, if he doesn’t make sense to him them, they will reject it (Applause) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): So well said Sadhguru: We are (Applause)…We are just on the verge of that So this is a time, this is a good time, because now we are moving to a place where only truth can be the authority, authority cannot be the truth anymore – doesn’t matter where the authority is coming from This evolution is anyway going to happen in the next In my estimate, I’m saying somewhere between next twenty to forty years’ time, all the heavens will collapse When I say heavens will collapse, do you know what’s in heaven? You must know (Laughter) In…In Hindu heaven, the food is very good If you are a foodie, that’s where you must go Nala himself cooks for you – the best chef In another place, there are those white gowned ladies who float around legless ladies who float around in the clouds If you like that kind of ambiance, you go there In another place you’ll encounter virgin problems If you like that, you can go there But what do you have to do to get there? This happened in Alabama You’ve heard of Alabama? It’s a special state in America In a Sunday school, a Sunday school teacher was going on, full on, full fire And in his rhetoric he asked, “What do you have to do to go to heaven?” Little Mary, who was sitting in the front row said,

“If I scrub the church floor every Sunday I will go to heaven.” He said, “Absolutely!” Another little girl stood up and said, “If I share fifty percent of my pocket money with a less privileged friend I will go to heaven.” “Correct!” Another little boy said, “If I help other people, I will go to heaven.” “Correct!” Little Tommy in the back bench stood up and said “You got to die first” (Laughter/Applause) That’s the qualification – you got to die first When you die, depending upon what culture you are, we will either burn you, bury you, or cut you and throw you to the birds One thing is, if you have not done anything eco-friendly, I’m assuring you, at least when you die, we will do something eco-friendly about you (Laughter) We’ll put you back to earth, it’s a very good thing to do (Laughs) If you take this body and go away somewhere, this is the worst thing to do because you’re taking away the topsoil (Laughter) So, we you will leave your body here and go to heaven You went to heaven without a body, what are you going to do with good food and virgins? This’s what I want to know (Laughter) – when you don’t have a body So I’m saying, heavens will collapse (Applause) Once people start asking logical questions, heavens will collapse When heavens collapse We have managed humanity for a long time telling them, “Doesn’t matter you’re suffering here, god is look at everything – your suffering – one day he will reward you up there”, with this we have been managing humanity So this will not work When this doesn’t work, what will people do? One big thing that’ll happen is, we will move towards chemicals To be peaceful, we already need chemicals, to be joyful, we need chemicals, to be healthful, we need chemicals Seventy percent of the United States population is on prescription medication – the other thirty percent of course buying it off the back streets (Laughter) Just Just see, in the last twenty-five years, how many more people are consuming alcohol, how many more people are consuming drugs on this planet? It’s gone up 10000 percent This is simply because in their minds, heaven is collapsing you must understand this that somewhere else it will be good is going away They wanna have it good here Unless you teach them Unless you teach them how to simply sit here and be blissed out about your existence itself – the very life within you is an ecstatic process – if you don’t teach them this, ninety percent will move toward drugs and alcohol in a huge way in the next twenty-five to thirty years This is not a moral issue for me I have no moral judgment on that It is just that, as a generation of people, we must understand, we hold this space on the planet just for a brief period of time There are two fundamental responsibilities One is we must leave the world a little better than the way it was given to us by the previous generation This we cannot do No matter… If we do all the right things from today, it will take another hundred-and-fifty to two hundred years to turn back the damage we have already caused So no way we can leave the world better than the way it was when we came in So in that responsibility we can’t fulfill, we can start the process now, that’s all The next important responsibility we have as a generation is the next generation that we produce must be at least one notch better than us But if ninety percent of humanity is on some kind of chemicals, believe me, genetically we will produce a generation which is less than us This is a crime against humanity So, one important aspect that every nation has to take care of including ours is, that we must teach people how to know well-being within themselves Unfortunately right now, we think if you give money, or food, or medicine, it is service, if I teach you how to live joyfully it is not service We have still See, in this country, the most important thing in the ancient India was, you know how to be within you This was the most respected thing because we know what will come out of this When you have no concerns of fear when you have no fear of suffering, that is when you will walk your life full-stride That is when great human beings are produced If we want to produce a great nation Nation, society, these are just words There are only individual human beings

Only if we produce great human beings will there be a great society and a great nation and a great world (Applause) Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Sadhguru, I’d have to thank you at this point Questioner: Thank you Talking about perceptions and _____ (Unclear) about you talking about perception and expanded awareness I have seen my own experience of working on myself, consciousness etcetera, I saw sometimes when the perception was expanded and then I felt it, I felt it, I also saw that there was a very thin line between imagination and perception There were times when one could actually pick up a lot of information about things around us, like the energy, and sometimes it was like, “is it my fear, or is it everybody else’s fear – the… the collective consciousness?” What validates that within me? That is it me, is it imagination, is it perception? Sadhguru: See, there are five dimensions of receptivity in the human being, or five major points of receptivity in the human brain itself These five dimensions are referred to as centers of sleep, centers of imagination, centers of memory, centers of right perception, centers of perversion Everything that comes to you, how you perceive it depends on through which center you took it in You will see if you have two children at home, same genetics, same food, probably went to the same school – one goes like this, another goes like this (Gestures) You can’t figure – how did these two people come from the same father and mother (Laughs) because it is the way they perceive it, from where they receive it Same things, if you receive from different dimensions, it becomes different things within you This is the reason why (Laughs) This is… This may look like a little thing, but I’m telling you, this is the reason why, forever, they have been stressing on a live guru because when you walk a terrain that you’re not familiar with, it’s best to have a guide who’s walked the terrain See, I… Every…Every year I trek in Tibet and Nepal This Sherpa who walks with me, he is illiterate, he… he doesn’t know anything, spirituality – nothing – but we’re going in the mountains, there’re two pathways, he just says, “Mmm” (Gestures?), I just go behind him If I think I am much smarter than him and I say, “No, like this I will go” (Gestures), maybe that’s my last day (Few laugh), you understand? In the mountains, he is the boss He knows the terrain, he’s lived there, he’s grown up there, he has a certain sense With all my education, I have a sense of direction I’m an aviator, I have a certain sense of direction, I know the mathematics, I know the geometry of it, everything, but still when I’m in the mountains, if he says, “Mmm”, I go this way He doesn’t even care to tell me, “Sadhguru, come this way.” He just says, “Mmm” (Laughter), I just follow him It’s sensible to do that When you’re walking in unfamiliar terrain, that’s the best thing to do Thank you