– [Tom] Okay, welcome everyone to another oral history interview in our series about trucking on Route 66 My name is Tom Peters, dean of libraries at Missouri State University in Springfield, Missouri Today’s date is Friday, March 2nd, 2018 And our special guest today, for a second round of interviews is Larry Posey, who was the VP of sales and marketing – At Campbell 66, yes – [Tom] Campbell 66 Express and then later on he founded and led Nixa Trucking And we’re at the offices of Nixa Trucking just west of Springfield, Missouri, this morning So Larry, thanks again Thanks for welcoming me back again for another round of interviews – Well, my pleasure This has been so interesting What’s really neat is I’ve come up with stuff I had forgotten myself (laughing) You know, we talked about the history of trucking and the difference that happened from well, like Campbell’s 66 started in the ’20s What’s different in trucking then and now going down 66 Highway, aka I-44 One of the things I thought that would be very interesting is to see which truck lines in 1965, 1980, 1990 and now are still around And what happened This report right here was the one that was hard to get, but Transport Topics, the magazine helped me and they got it for me One thing that is really striking, the top carrier in the United States that’s no longer in business, was Consolidated Freightways, CF, the red and green CF They did a $147 million Now that was a lot of money in ’65 I remember, boy, CF’s got more money than Washington, D.C The top truck line in 2016 only did $6.3 billion So in those years, the top carrier went from $140 million to $6 billion – [Tom] And who was the top carrier? – FedEx Freight FedEx Freight FedEx, you think of FedEx with their package, but they have a whole, a complete freight division – [Tom] Yep – And they’re the very largest But what’s interesting of these top 50 carriers in 1965, I think only six of them are left, or five I made a copy of that so you can look at it – [Tom] Am I missing Campbell 66? – Yes, in ’65, we were not in the top 50, we were about 60 Now here in 1980, you will see Campbell 66 right here at number 67 – [Tom] Okay – Now that was ’80 Now the revenue went up, I think we got into the top, close to the top 50 or maybe 40 because at ’80 we did this, this says we did $78 million We got to $100 million And if you look up here, 51, Midwest Emory Freight System was $105 million and they got into the top 50 and they died before Campbell did But we got pretty well over $100 million So we went up One of the main differences was niche, it’s regional Most of these carriers, with the exception of CF, Roadway and PIE, Pacific Intermountain Express, were these were nationwide Most of the rest of them were regional – [Tom] Was Jones at number 25 and 65– – That is the Jones from Detroit – [Tom] Oh, okay – JTL, that’s Jones Motor JMC, Jones truck line out of Springdale, Arkansas, was the same boat Campbell is because they were number 66 – [Tom] Oh, okay – See, they were primary competitors

– [Tom] Yeah, they were your primary competitors – On certain lanes, yes Jones and Gordon from the Midwest, Kansas City, St. Louis, Chicago, Jones, and Gordon’s Transport was our primary competitors And Gordon’s is on here also But one thing that’s really interesting about this 65 list, that caused a lot of changes is mergers For example, here, Denver, Chicago, DC, and T-I-M-E, Texas Intercity Motor Express out of Lubbock, Texas Denver, Chicago was number eight in size TIME was number 14 in size They merged, then it was DC, then it was TIME DC, then it was TIME deceased They died And there’s so many things on here that you can see What happened, in my humble opinion, Campbell 66 knew how to do Kansas City to Memphis, Kansas City to New Orleans, Kansas City to Jackson, Kansas City to Atlanta When we started going to Cleveland and Pittsburgh and out in there, we really didn’t know how to do that because generally a regional operation was a three to 500 mile length of haul You pick it up today, you deliver it tomorrow You go from Dallas to Cleveland, Ohio That is a different operation You gotta have hubs, you gotta have break bulks and the cold hard facts of life were you got paid to pick up the freight and deliver the freight You profit depended on what you did with it in the middle – [Tom] Yeah – If you handle, every time you handled it, it did one thing, it cost money – [Tom] Yep – And for example, Texas’ TIME freight line was big, big in the southwest, Texas Intercity Motor Express They served, I think they even served sagebrush junctions in Texas I mean, they were really a big, good carrier DC was actually one of the first trans mountain express, Denver, Chicago, LA, that kind of stuff – [Tom] You put them together, there’s two different operations TIME was pick it up and Dallas and deliver it in Lubbock DC was pick it up in Chicago and deliver it in LA – [Tom] Yeah, different kind of operations – Different operations and very seldom did they meld The only one that really ever did it well was ABF out of Fort Smith, Arkansas They survived five mergers and are still in the top 50 today Somewhere I can find ’em They changed their name, that may be why I’m trying to find them, hard to find them, but ABF is still very successful, but it isn’t called ABF anymore and I don’t remember what it is, but that’s kinda what happened – [Tom] So In a way, merging was the lifeblood for growth for a trucking front – It seemed– – [Tom] But it was also dangerous – It was the lifeblood for growth You take TIME and DC, 55, 100, when they merged, they became the third largest truck line in the United States, revenue wise – [Tom] Yeah – Then they became the last, because they died For example, another one that ran in this area was Chief, Chief Motor Freight It was a regional carrier, we were all regional, niche Kansas City, Tulsa, Oklahoma City, Dallas Pick it up today, deliver it tomorrow They merged with Morrison Motor Freight They connected in Kansas City because then you had to have a tack point for your authority They had to tuck somewhere back before 1980 Well all of a sudden, Chief bought Morrison, I say merged, they bought them – [Tom] Yeah – Now a company that had a maximum length of haul

of 509 miles now has a maximum length of haul of 1,400 Didn’t match It didn’t mix, for some strange reason Mr. Campbell told me once, he said, I’ll tell you, he told me several things, but this one was really strange He said, “There’s one thing you can’t be, all things to all people all the time.” He said, he quoted an old football coach, he said, “You gotta dance with the one that brung you.” And you got to know, he said most of the carriers that fail fail because they didn’t know what they wanted to be – [Tom] So that raises another question It seems to me, just as I’m learning more about the trucking industry, is that the founders leaders were strong individuals It’s almost like the person who started the truck line, the success of the truck line really hinged on– – Him– – [Tom] Him – Yes, yes And with my relationship with Mr. Campbell, I met the majority of the regional guys I knew Kurt Crow well, the president of CF at that time Kurt Crow, he was a Comanche Indian and brilliant Frank Campbell, Harvey Jones with the JTL, Bob Manley of Manley Transfer that ran up and down 66 Highway, Springfield, Joplin, Tulsa, Pittsburgh, Kansas Lloyd Stiff, the founder and president of Chief, Pete Case, the president and founder of TOX, Texas Oklahoma Express That was Chief’s primary competitor I met all those guys I knew them They were a different breed of cat – [Tom] Yeah, so just describe for us what they, I’m assuming they were brilliant but also– – Rough – [Tom] Immensely practical – Oh yes In today’s market they would not be politically correct (laughing) – [Tom] They called them as they saw them – Just exactly And they did not mince words Not one iota Those gentlemen I just mentioned, I think only Kurt Crow had a college education Mr. Campbell, I think he was just out of high school – [Tom] Yeah – Harvey Jones, he give a lot of money to the University of Arkansas, I don’t think he ever went there Pete Case, Lloyd Stiff, Malcolm Gordon of Gordon’s Transport, I don’t think any of these guys were educated as far as formally educated – [Tom] School of hard knocks – They went to Hard Knock State University and Frank Campbell told me once, he said, “I went to Hard Knocks State and graduated, not ‘Sigma Cum Laude’ but ‘Lordy, how come?'” – (laughing) – That’s the way they were That’s the way they were They weren’t like some of the presidents of these, I got you the list of today’s top 100 – [Tom] Yeah – All these guys have probably got master’s degrees – [Tom] Yeah – These guys had practical degrees But so many things they said, you get paid to pickup freight and deliver freight, what’d you do with it in the middle determines if you make any money – [Tom] Yeah – That’s from 1963 – [Tom] So if a trucking line failed, it was trying to be too much, trying to be everything for everybody, all routes Was there ever what they now call succession planning so that everybody gets older, they want to retire – You mean golden parachutes or something? – [Tom] Well, was it hard to sort of pass, if you were a strong founder, leader of a truck line, was it hard to even just, you gave it over to your son, you gave Nixa Trucking over to your son and that transition thing, was that– – That was really easy because, for me, Shayne had been around trucking He used to go to work with me when he was yay tall Got a picture of him when he was nine years old sitting on Frank Campbell’s knee at our dinner table So it was easy for me because he’d been in it since before he had zits, you know what I mean

He was just a little bitty kid, and he hung out with all of these people at Campbell: the VPs, the road drivers, the dock workers. He knew them all, so him taking over was just a matter of him getting rid of me But these other carriers that I named for you, Jones Truck Line did not survive the original owner, the founder Jones Truck Line didn’t survive the founder Campbell did not survive the founder Chief did not survive the founder Gordon’s did not survive the founder TOX did not survive the founder TIME Freight Lines did not survive the founder As far as succession with that kind of a track record, I don’t think there was a plan because if there was, it didn’t work because these carriers that I just rattled off didn’t really survive the founder Yeah, after the founder got out, they lasted for a year or two, somebody might’ve bought part of them Like Leeway, Bob Lee, when he got out, they sold it to PepsiCo Pepsi Cola, they owned Pizza Hut, Pepsi, and Leeway Motor Freight Now they had a built in customer, but I don’t know how much a guy that develops formulas for soda pop knows about hauling freight from Cleveland to Pittsburgh or Pittsburgh to LA. So they survived a little bit, and then went down But all of these guys that I just talked about, Malcolm McLean, they didn’t survive – [Shayne] How long you gonna be here? I’ve gotta run an errand, be about 15 minutes – Well, can you I want to introduce you to Shayne – [Tom] Sure, sure – Shayne, this is Dean Thomas Peters from Missouri State – [Shayne] And I’ve been one of them Friday mornings, I can’t get caught up – [Tom] Yeah, yeah – [Shayne] I’m trying to – Okay, I told him you possibly wanted to talk about interns – [Shayne] Yeah, absolutely – [Tom] Alright, yeah – Because– – [Tom] Just give me a call sometime – [Shayne] Okay, okay – And if you’re a back before we’re done, you can talk to him then – [Shayne] Okay, that would be awesome – [Tom] All right – [Shayne] Awesome, thank you – [Tom] Sounds good, nice to meet you – [Shayne] Thank you – Thanks for the room – [Shayne] No problem – But see, our succession was different Now, Mr. Campbell, he didn’t, he had two daughters They were beautiful and very smart, but they didn’t hoof the dock You know what I mean? – [Tom] Yeah – I don’t think Harvey Jones had any children at JTL I think Lloyd Stiff at TOX did and some of the second generation kids didn’t have their fathers’ intensity because these carriers I mentioned all had one thing in common One thing They all started broke – [Tom] Yep Drive Yeah – Drive is a great word, but it’s a gross understatement for that generation of truckers – [Tom] Yeah – Drive, they didn’t know anything else – [Tom] Yeah – It was unbelievable – [Tom] Yeah – They didn’t drive their people, but in ’76 when we bought out Trans American, basically we just bought their authority and tacked it in Kansas City and Omaha and St. Louis Well, we had authority to a nice town in Omaha And next thing I knew I had some office forms in the trunk of my car and I got transferred to Omaha and he said, go up there and start the terminal And he didn’t want to hear a bunch of excuses So we did And we made money in the first year – [Tom] Wow – Yeah, yeah, we turned a profit the very first year And it was cool We did well enough I got promoted into Springfield, in the general office But you knew these guys were so straight out, you knew what they expected – [Tom] Yeah – I mean, there wasn’t any gray, really You knew what they expected – [Tom] Yeah So during the era of regulation, federal regulation, how did the trucking industry sort of, what was that?

Was that a minor nuisance? Was it a referee kind of, you’re going to play a game, you gotta have a referee – That was the Interstate Commerce Commission, the ICC In regulation It was actual regulation from, we talked about it last time from 1936 I believe, to 1980 You could go from point A to point B via these highways Every place you went, you were authorized by the federal government with a piece of authority, and I’ve still got one of those somewhere and I’ll show it to you One way or another I’ll get it to you, an actual ICC Certificate of Authority – [Tom] Oh yeah – Yeah, I’ve still got Campbell’s somewhere But you had to be like Kansas City to Omaha We had to go up, let’s see, I-29 and go through Tarkio, Missouri, to get to Omaha because that was the tack point And when we bought Texoma, Texas Motor Freight, we had to go to Dallas via Wichita Falls Everywhere you went, you had here to there via these routes – [Tom] Oh, I see – There were tariff bureaus, pricing And honestly, the truck lines copied the railroads Rocky Mountain was a copy of the Grand Trunk But you had the major ones which was Rocky Mountain, back and forth, Rocky Mountain 25 went that way and I think 24 went that way, there was a tariff number Middle West Motor Freight Bureau was the one that we dealt with, that was the middle west, Chicago, Dallas, kind of a circle from all the way up to the Canadian border down through the Dakotas, Texas, Memphis, St. Louis and that area, middle west Then you had Southern Motor Carriers Rate Conference, which was basically where middle west quit all the way down to Florida Then you had central and you had central states which was cut off about Missouri, Illinois line, Chicago, St. Louis– – [Tom] To Pittsburgh – To Pittsburgh, Cleveland, that kind of stuff And then you had eastern central, here to the coast – [Tom] Yep – And I’d like to say the truckers invented that, but they really didn’t You go back and look at railroads at tariff bureaus– – [Tom] Same thing, same thing – They’re virtually the same thing They had it, railroads had it right in the first place But your rates were all the same – [Tom] Mm hmm – I think we’ve covered this before If I shipped a thousand pounds of these notebooks for you from here to Kansas City, same for you, for him What that was done to do is protect the shipper and the consignee because the railroads, those tariffs came about and rules because the railroads, like if we’re both cattlemen in Texas and we drive our herds to Abilene, if I don’t like you, I won’t haul yours – [Tom] Right – So if I’ve got authority to serve a point, that’s why you had to be very careful about what you got authority to serve Because if you had any authority to serve it, you had to serve it And back then the ICC was so powerful, they could issue a show ’cause you gotta come and convince us not to shut you down And also they monitored the safety, the bumpers on a trailer back when I started were called ICC bumpers They were required and they’re still there But they monitored cargo claims and would come to your terminal and audited your cargo claims Now, they didn’t care if you ever paid a claim An ICC examiner told me once, when he came to Omaha and put, that was my, shall we say, awakening (laughing) A customer turned us in because I turned down their claim I said it was poorly packaged He said, “Okay, it probably was, but you know what? If it’s poorly packaged, don’t pick it up.”

– [Tom] So you have to sort of inspect it and make sure that it’s– – Yeah, because once you sign that bill of lading, then– – [Tom] It’s yours – It’s yours, it’s mine – [Tom] You’re responsible for it – It’s mine I either deliver it or make you whole And the other thing they did, they didn’t care if you ever paid a claim, but you had to treat every claim the same – [Tom] Sure – If I turned down your shipment because of your claim because of poor packaging and paid one to Joe Smith down the street for that, that’s a fine – [Tom] Yeah – That everybody had– – [Tom] Had the same thing – Everybody had to be treated the same way – [Tom] Now were they also, were the feds also almost like regulating the industry in the sense that they didn’t want anybody to get too big – They really didn’t – [Tom] They didn’t do anything– – They didn’t want anybody to go broke The tariff bureaus, and Mr Campbell told me this once, the tariff bureaus, the prices were designed, if you could run a truck, you can turn a nickel on the dollar profit, a 95 ratio He told me that once over coffee See, back then none of these guys had lost money Carriers didn’t go broke in ’65 They didn’t go broke till they started merging – [Tom] And the fuel prices were regulated by the feds too, right? – The fuel prices kind of went, came and went as they pleased, but the state taxes, the federal and state taxes were all regulated But most of these carriers here and Campbell, at our terminals, we had big tanks and the Lowell One in Kansas City, Call Transport would bring a tanker over and fill it up We had two tanks, one for diesel and one for gasoline because most of our city trucks, the city pickup and deliveries were gasoline And in ’60, when I was night dispatcher up there, I want to say ’66, Call would deliver at about 8 o’clock at night, which was on my shift and I’d have to sign And I remember once the price was 10.1 cents a gallon That was the fuel, not the taxes, but that was the fuel Yeah, diesel – [Tom] So you had somebody who was buying fuel for you– – Oh yeah, yes We had purchasing people– – [Tom] Yeah, and they were looking at what are the trends, is it gonna go up, is it gonna go down – Yeah, and like, okay, for example, now all of the major purchasing was done in Springfield It wasn’t done at the terminals But I do know that one of the purchasing guys, well I knew them both really well, okay, Call Transport is nine miles away from our terminal Alright, if we get somebody that’s 40 miles away at 8.9 cents a gallon, we may be paying more because they’re kind of like us, they’re not gonna deliver anything for free – [Tom] Yeah, so you have to sort of figure out– – Yeah, but buying equipment, see, all purchasing was done here other than paperclips and crap like that at the terminal – [Tom] Right Yeah, so what about your fleet? How did that work? Were there advantages to having the same darned trucks so that– – There were, there were And who proved that? Who proved that forever was Herb Kelleher for Southwest Airlines – [Tom] Yeah – You go buy a lug nut Southwest does There’s one Every plane’s the same You go buy a tire, it fits everything – [Tom] Yeah – Most of your carriers got, as we used to say, half pregnant in the equipment We had various kinds of tractors And that was a pain in the rear Now, some carriers were all identical CKC, Chicago, Kansas City, that’s all I ever had, Chicago, Kansas City They had Hendrickson’s and they were all blue Chief Freight Lines had auto cars that had a hood on them about as long as this room and they were fire engine red

I wish that we at Campbell had done the same thing every time, but like, we were the first ones that had the Mercedes Benz over the road truck with a V10 diesel engine in it It was great, but there wasn’t anybody that could work on it I know one of them came to Omaha one time and had a problem and we had to go to Lincoln to the Mercedes Benz car dealer to get somebody that could work on it because most of the people, mechanics back then didn’t have metric wrenches – [Tom] Yeah, yeah – I think Mr. Campbell and I or everybody agreed or kind of disagreed on that, but all the same is the way to go Leeway, every one of their trucks was painted yellow and was a flat-faced, a cab over it The technical term is COE, cab over engine We called ’em skillet faces They were all that way CF, all the same White freightliners TOX was all the same, diamond tees I believe And I mean they were even painted the same Now, ours were painted the same, but one might be a Western Star, one might be a White, one might be a GMC – [Tom] Yeah, so Campbell never really standardized on that – We never standardized, never did standardize the fleet We had different kinds of tractors and you know, I think a lot of that had to do with some of the deals Mr Campbell might’ve made It might have been worth it I don’t know – [Tom] How many miles would you get out of a typical truck? – Sir? – [Tom] How many miles would you get out of a typical truck? – Well, back then you could get about a half a million miles out of them and what the shop would tell you at 250,000 miles, you need to do a lower unit on it That’s rod and main bearings And then run it another 250 Then what Campbell would do is after their road life was used up, they’d bring them in, refurbish them, paint them and put them in for city units – [Tom] Yeah So do most truckers have both the over the road and also city? – Yes, yes – [Tom] For just obvious reasons, I guess – Yeah, because particularly the guys like Leeway and CF and the guys that run sleepers, it’s so hard to pick up and deliver freight in town with a sleeper But Campbell 66 never did run sleepers that I know I never saw one – [Tom] Because you never went to the coast, right? You never went to the coasts? – No, no Our longest, we went as far as Pittsburgh, Buffalo and San Antonio, Houston, around New Orleans, Mobile, Atlanta up We were right there Matter of fact there are, there we are That was our, that’s where we went right there – [Tom] So how important was, so you say, you get paid when you pick up and you get paid when you drop off and a profit and loss is based on what you do between those two points Profit and loss is what you do between those two points – Yeah – [Tom] Handle it as little as possible And what about fuel efficiency and just efficiency of operation Was it all about process improvement, to get it just everything The back door so you don’t have to get out, open the doors, then backup, you just back up once, you got the– – [Tom] Yeah Efficiency was with the doors that Mr. Campbell did He also had air dollies on a bunch of trailers instead of, you just pulled the lever When they worked, they were great The other thing about efficiencies, and I know this is going to sound abrupt, but at eight to 11 cents a gallon for diesel, fuel mileage, I didn’t even know what it was – [Tom] Didn’t matter, no – It didn’t matter – [Tom] Yeah – I mean I never, when I was young in the ’60s,

I didn’t even know how many miles per gallon a trip got, and I’m not too sure anybody else did either – [Tom] That was just a non– – At nine cents a gallon, what difference does it make? – [Tom] Uh huh, yeah – And we were an LTL carrier and our load average, 26, 28, 29,000 Now here, it makes a huge difference – [Tom] Here at Nixa Trucking – Yes, because you’ve got generally one shipment on one truck and you got to keep up with it Of course, that’s the difference in $2.50 a gallon and nine cents – [Tom] Yeah – But these trucks nowadays are really, really fuel efficient – [Tom] Yeah Back in the ’70s, so I don’t have much history with trucking, so this is an outsider kind of a story that I heard was there was a trucking firm out of Colorado called Monfort – Monfort, sure – – [Tom] And what I’d heard was they told their drivers get there as quickly as possible, and so they used to call the left hand lane the Monfort lane Because you’d always see those Monfort trucks – Yeah, that’s what it is, the Monfort lane – – [Tom] The story I heard was they figured out that it was more lucrative to just run those trucks as fast as they could go If you get pulled over and got a ticket, who cared, you’d get back in and you’d speed again They were getting it, getting it, they would haul a lot of beef – Yeah, they hauled swinging meat a lot of times – [Tom] Yeah, so to get that meat to its destination was more important than staying within the speed limit – They didn’t care about the speed limit Chief Freight Lines, for example That was the Monfort of our area Chief, back in my days, paid for 69 Highway from Kansas City to Dallas Them auto cars they had, some of them had four by fours, two four speed transmissions, and on the flats, they’d only run about 100 That’s the way with Monfort And they wanted to get there as fast as they could and at nine, 20, 15 cents a gallon, so what, it burnt more But they called them both feet flat on the floor Just as hard as she’d run And they had trucks that could outrun cars – [Tom] Yeah – Yes sir, Monfort and that one out of Liberal, Kansas, that hauled meat too, I forget the name of it, was a meat hauler And RISS, R-I-S-S out of Kansas City Now those, they didn’t haul LTL They were not competitors for us Everything was a truckload They didn’t have freight docks, they didn’t have nothing They picked it up here and they took it there as fast as they could get it there And when fuel was a quarter a gallon, who cares – [Tom] So for full loads, perishables, it was just watch out – Yeah, you need to get out of the Monfort lane because they’re gonna be going about 90 And some of the flatbed haulers were kind of the same way – [Tom] And Campbell, remind me, Campbell was more or less than load and more dry, what do you call it, dry, not refrigerated – We had a few, few refres I think I may have told you, these Campbell’s were hand painted They all had, some of them had a gold tooth, some of them had a frown, but the ones, some of them Bill Boyd painted a few of them reefers with a cutaway of an igloo – [Tom] Uh huh – Norton was sitting in there with a fur coat “Brr, it’s cold in here.” But the reefers per se, were very handy They helped us land an account called Sherwin Williams The refres will also throw a switch and stay warm Latex paint has a problem when it’s zero So it was a marketing tool for that I never went out and tried to get my people to get a whole lot of frozen meat or fresh meat, but occasionally, if you had a guy that shipped both and you could make one of his problems go away, he liked you a little better, if you know what I mean

– [Tom] Yeah – But we did not make a living with refrigerated trailers They were there as kind of a crutch – [Tom] But you never did any flatbed stuff – I never saw a flatbed that had a camel on it In all the years I worked there Now, we had open tops, like a piece of machinery that’s that much, it had a tarp top, but they still were trailers per se – [Tom] What about those side loads that have pretty much tarps– – Oh, curtain sides? – [Tom] Yeah, curtain sides A forklift would just go in and just– – Yeah, a lot of that came about with General Motors We didn’t buy, General Motors was one of Campbell’s biggest accounts, we’d haul parts in and their Canadian facility had sometimes wanted curtain sides And I’ll tell you, and I forgot the name of the company, but it was a company in Toronto, Ontario, that, you know when you go to a garage, they lift your car up on this thing, and I forgot the name of the company They made those, and they had to have curtain sides or you couldn’t get them unloaded So we respectfully declined It’s kind of hard to spend a couple, uh, $3 million for one account, and that trailer is no good for nobody else – [Tom] Right, right, right So better to generalize – But yes, they were quite popular up in the machine, in the rust belt – [Tom] Yeah So here’s another question I’ve always wondered about trucking, is intermodal stuff So I was driving down to Gainesville, Missouri, last weekend I see this train go by and it’s got all these piggybacks How does intermodal, what’s the advantage of intermodal? – Price – [Tom] For a long haul? – Price for a long haul Yeah, like the Burlington Northern, BN Santa Fe, I believe it’s called – [Tom] Yeah – Their biggest customer is JB Hunt truck lines – [Tom] Yeah, yeah So what’s the basic deal Most of the way you’re hauling on the back of a train – Right – [Tom] That’s cheap – I pick it up here in Nixa I take my trailer down here to where the Frisco yards used to be They take a thing and pick it up and set it on a flat car, lock it down, take it to LA for example, pick it up again and then a city truck goes and delivers it And the advantage of that is price The disadvantage is speed – [Tom] Time, yeah – Time It’s pretty hard to get anything trans shipped or switched en route that fits on a 110 car train going 80 miles an hour through New Mexico Basically once it’s on there, it’s on there But it is cheaper It’s cheaper than a motor carrier truck, but it’s not as responsive, and it’s not as fast But it is definitely cheaper, like a lot cheaper – [Tom] Would you guys go directly into ports like down in Mobile – Ports? We try not to – [Tom] Is that just a big headache for a truck? – It’s a big headache Campbell used to go to New Orleans and Mobile and Houston It took us longer to pick up three shipments at the port of New Orleans than it did 10 anywhere else Sometimes the longshoremans were having a bad hair day (laughing) And with all due respect, an autographed picture of Andy Jackson would certainly suffice as a hairdresser, if you get my drift I wouldn’t say that we ever did that at Campbell 66, but I would say if you didn’t, you might be there a long, long time – [Tom] Yeah, so it was just a hassle – It was just a hassle We don’t do any here at Nixa Trucking, Shayne doesn’t do any direct port stuff None – [Tom] What about hauling for federal government – Who? – [Tom] Federal government or, ya know, branch of the military? – That’s all done with what’s called a government tender Even back in ’65, government freight, it moved on a GBL, Government Bill of Lading

Was not subject to the tariff bureaus You had to do a sec Please let me be right A section 22 tender, you had to file that with the government And we did some of that at Campbell from Lake City up by Independence, Ammunition, to New Orleans The government stuff – [Tom] Was it good business if you could get it? – There was two schools of thought We also did GSA, the big GSA facility in Kansas City and all of those were done on section 22 government tenders Now, if you had a tender in that was the same, and let’s say there were five, five people – [Tom] Right, right – They would start with the cheapest and if one and two were the same, the government would rotate like Kansas City to New Orleans We’d get it one month, Gordon’s would get it the next month And then if both of us were out of business, they’d go to number three, number four and number five And you failed to pick up a couple of times, they would politely cancel your tender But I’m glad you brought that up The government was exempt from the tariff bureaus You could make up your own rate So they were also, they didn’t care, they wanted a better deal for themselves and they didn’t care if you got one or not – [Tom] Right, right – But I don’t get much has changed (laughing) – [Tom] Yeah The other thing I’ve been wondering about, so you described the sort of a baseline how it worked, but I know, I’ve heard anyway, that for the railroads there were all these exemptions and special rules Like if you were a circus and you wanted your circus train to be hauled from St Louis to Springfield, a different set of rules applied All these kind of exceptions and special deals Did that happen in the trucking industry? – Yes, it did Yes, it did It was called an exception rating – [Tom] Yeah – And let me tell you something about the railroads They were so smart They had what they called milling in transit rates I know one of my best customers was the traffic manager at International Milling in Kansas City And what he had to have there on a certain set delivery, he used the truck lines And what they didn’t care if it got there in a week or 10 days or two, they used the railroads But they had milling in transit rates You pick up wheat in Nebraska and it’s going to New Orleans Well, you stop it off in Kansas City to make flour out of it Yeah That was milling in transit rates – [Tom] Yeah – The railroads had, back then you, a rate clerk at a railroad terminal, he was about the top dog because those rail tariffs, you think truck tarriffs were hard to read, those rail tarrifs was– – [Tom] Needs a real area of expertise – Like trying to read a bowl of spaghetti I mean they were tough, but they were very smart But yes, the truck lines had exception ratings You had your class rates How that worked, it started out at class 100, which was first class Let’s say it’s $10 a hundred weight for a shipment from here to Tulsa of whatever, it’s class 100, which would be that telephone right there Now, nuts and bolts was class 50, which was half of class 100 You had class 50, class 55, 65, 70, 77 and a half, 85, 92 and 100 – [Tom] 92? – Huh? – [Tom] 92 – It was 92% of– – [Tom] So what was the basic thought, is like hauling bolts is slimmer margin for the manufacturer, pretty easy because you’re not gonna, unless you tip the truck over, you’re not gonna ruin any bolts – Right – [Tom] They don’t freeze, they don’t melt – A lot of these rates, well they also went up to class 600

Ping pong balls, a whole truckload weighed nothing – (laughing) – We had a customer in Kansas City, Beloved Toys, made great big teddy bears They’re class 300 – [Tom] Yeah – But that was three times first class But the way the bureau’s quote unquote determined those rates was tonnage loadability In other words, nuts and bolts, you can get 40,000 pounds of them on a trailer Ping pong balls, you can get 65 pounds on a trailer – [Tom] Right – Damage susceptibility, compatibility with other freight, perishability, that kind of stuff Excuse me, that wasn’t class 92, it was 92 and a half, I’m sorry But for example, candy out of Russell Stover’s facility in Kansas City, I believe that was class 92 and a half and Sheffield Steel’s nuts and bolts was 50, Bayer, their chemical division, that was class 55 or 60 It’s been so long But to get a rate, you had to know the origin, the destination, the commodity, and then that commodity, it was called the NMFC, National Motor Freight Classification It was out of Washington, D.C And you looked it up. Notebooks, paper, NOI, Not Otherwise Identified, is class 92 and a half Now, there was the nestability Paper cups, unnested, those are class 400 Nested, I believe they’re class 70 You see what I mean, nestability – [Tom] Right, right – How much could you get in there And they went through all of that procedure before they set a rate Then if you come out, I remember when handheld calculators come out, that was in the ’70s or ’80s – [Tom] Probably ’70s – You know the little handheld calculators, adding machines, basically The NMFC wrestled around with that for so long Some carriers embargo them, so we will not haul handheld calculators That’s okay to embargo them, but then with the rules, you had to embargo them all – [Tom] Yeah – I couldn’t haul yours and not haul his because I liked you better – [Tom] Right – But the National Motor Freight Classification wrestled that thing around a long, long time And I think they finally come up at class 125 And one of the problems was theft They seemed to walk Had the same problem with shoes Shoes seemed to disappear in a man, a woman, and two children Seriously, hey, I’ve looked at probably 10,000 cargo claims in my career Tires They’re always two or four – [Tom] Yeah, go missing – So, that’s just the way it is We used to haul freight from Penthouse, Meredith Publishing in Des Moines – [Tom] Oh, Penthouse Magazine – Penthouse Magazine And what he would do, he was so smart He’d load them up We’d take them from their publications to their distribution point Cleveland, Atlanta, this kind of thing He would break, I mean they were in a stack with the tied bands around them The last one in, he’d cut the bands on and leave them loose – [Tom] Because he knew somebody– – Because he knew if he didn’t, they wasn’t gonna cut them right and ruin a bunch of them It’s all the little things that the carriers did For example, Philip Morris, you know, Marlboro flip top box out of Louisville, Kentucky Trailers have one thing in common Eventually they’re all gonna leak Water and tobacco products generally

don’t have a good relationship So we worked with the vice president of Philip Morris who made Marlboro and we came up with a day, I don’t know if they still use it today or not, with a 50 foot bag, just like a trash bag And he built a little fan and they would set this bag, we’d put the bag in the truck, put the fan in it, it would blow up, and then two guys would go in there with brooms and rub the side of it to hold it up with static electricity to help hold it – [Tom] Then load it up, huh – Then we’d load the Marlboro’s in there, close it up, tape it, put a piece of cardboard behind that, close the door and we never had a wet one since – [Tom] Wow – Then, I don’t know, you had to have some kind of imagination, I guess I don’t know, but it worked To the tune that was the biggest customer at one time we had east of the Mississippi River – [Tom] Really? – Yeah, yeah – [Tom] You ever did tanker trucks? – No, I don’t know anything about them other than the fact if the tankers are not properly baffled inside of that tank when you come up and stop, the liquid inside keeps going Now that’s what I know about tankers – [Tom] That’s a whole different problem – That is a whole different cat I mean them guys are a different breed I mean not that they’re bad, but they got different problems – [Tom] It’s just a different business – Yes – [Tom] And whether it’s food grade, liquid, or– – Yes About the only experience I had with a tanker is with one call one time put diesel in the gasoline and the gasoline truck smoked pretty bad (laughing) Now that would have been a crisis if it had been the other way around because we had, there’s all kinds of trucks stories But we had a hostler, that’s the guy that jockeys them around in the yard and hooks them up and gets them ready to go, called a hostler They also fueled them Well, he put a little too much gasoline in a Mac and the road driver said, man, she brung about 90 miles an hour until she melted (laughing) Oh goodness – [Tom] Oh, those things happen – There’s so many trucking stories from Campbell I couldn’t live long enough to tell you ’em all – [Tom] Yeah Two other things I’ve been wondering about is, one is road construction So seems to me, back in the ’70s, a road construction project was more disruptive than they are today – Yes, it was more disruptive – [Tom] So for a trucking firm, if you knew that I-70 was gonna be under construction this coming summer, would you re-route? – Yes Like when I-44 was screwed up between Tulsa and Joplin We’d just go down 60 – [Tom] Yeah So construction was just worked around – It was– – [Tom] You didn’t want to spend time at a dead stop – It was just like a hangnail You need to either bite it off or just sit there and watch it You got, the people that shifted, want it And the people that are down there waiting for it need it So they won’t care about road construction So it takes you longer, well – [Tom] It’s what you do – That’s what you do, that’s what you do It’s no different than an airplane when an airport’s closed because it’s got five inches of ice on it That’s just the way it is – [Tom] Yeah So what about bad weather? – Bad weather, that was always a problem and there are a lot, back in the ’60s and ’70s and even before, a lot of it you had to depend on your driver’s integrity I’m sitting in an office in Kansas City as a dispatcher and scheduler – [Tom] Right – A guy tells me it’s too bad at Big Cabin, Oklahoma, to make it to Dallas I was always one that believed him If you don’t think you can make it, don’t And personally I had the philosophy, if I make you go on and you turn that over and wreck the truck and tear all the freight up,

we haven’t gained anything – [Tom] Right – Okay, had you rather the freight be upside down besides 69 Highway or setting at the Big Chief truck stop in Big Cabin until it’s safe to go And I can’t make that decision 200 miles away – [Tom] Right You really had to trust your drivers – Yes, yes, you really do – [Tom] You mentioned this last time, but I forget How many accidents did you have, would you have – Oh, Campbell, we didn’t have many – [Tom] So really accidents weren’t a major part? – There was just, where is our safety, there you go, 10 We got the percentage for Campbell In 1983, we had .270 accidents per 100,000 miles That was compared to a national average of 12 – [Tom] .270, so basically– – 100,000 miles, we would have less, we would have a quarter of a wreck – [Tom] Yeah, so I’m sure you had like one wreck for every 400,000 miles – Yeah, basically is what it was And the national average, I remember when we compiled this, was 12 – [Tom] Was 12, so you had a much better record than the national average – Yeah, yeah, and we didn’t run in the mountains either – [Tom] Right – You know what I mean? – [Tom] Right – We had some hills out towards Pennsylvania, but we didn’t– – [Tom] I imagine driving on the east coast is a different kettle of fish – Well we did You’ve been to New York City? – [Tom] Yeah – Alright Drive 53 foot trailer and a 29 or 26 foot tractor And New York City is a garden spot compared to Philadelphia and Pittsburgh and Buffalo New York City is like I-44 compared to those places And parts of St. Louis isn’t any better – [Tom] Yeah If you did have damaged freight, how would you make that whole? – Okay, that’s called cargo claims And back then there was a form, it was called stan I should’ve brought that, I’ve still got one Standard Form for Presentation of Loss or Damage Claim We deliver it to you You got five boxes One of ’em is in about six pieces Okay, you put on there what it is, who shipped it, blah, blah, blah, the normal information And then you specifically lay out what is damaged and you also attach part of the required documents, was your invoice from who, what you paid for it We didn’t have a cargo claim We didn’t have to pay you a profit We had to make you whole And that was restore what we broke – [Tom] Yeah – And then you couldn’t, a claim file required that the freight charges be paid in full In other words, $100 freight bill, you got a $60 claim, broken glass You can’t just pay us $40 and say go away Back then, that was a crime I mean, well it still is just nobody enforces it, which I want to tell you about in a minute But once we got a cargo claim from you, we had to acknowledge it immediately We have to advise you in writing then, we have received your cargo claim, it has been assigned the following number, it will be investigated Then within 30 days, we had to bring that to a conclusion or tell you why we didn’t And a conclusion was not paying it in full A conclusion was pay in full or pay in part or decline In other words, one of the prime examples, you know big, great big rolls of newsprint? – [Tom] Mmhmm – Okay If a trailer leaked, which they all did sooner or later, and that much of it was wet, we didn’t have to buy the whole roll, just pay you, or a roll of cable We just had to buy what we tore up and you either pay it, you decline it or you offer a compromise, but you had to do that within 30 days

But that was the way it worked – [Tom] Back when I was growing up, there were, I guess they were called salvage companies – Sure – [Tom] So let’s say on a tire tractor trailer – Sure – [Tom] Jackknifes on ice and goes into the ditch and rolls – Derail, there’s one in Joplin called Derailed Commodity – [Tom] Yes I guess their basic business was they’d come and they’d clean up the mess and then whatever they could, somehow they would on the spot they’d say, I’ll pay you X number of dollars for this mess here on the side of the road And then they turn around and salvage some of that And then they have an outlet store – Yes – [Tom] You’d think you’d go in and you might find some stuff that had smoke damage or dents and bumps on a– – Pork and beans in a dented can – [Tom] In a dented can And there were businesses, that’s what they do There were salvage companies, are they still around? – We had our own – [Tom] Campbell had their own salvage? – Yeah, we had a salvage store back in the back of the lot A guy named Bill Pitchford, P-I-T-C-H-F-O-R-D ran it and see, once we tear it up and buy it, it’s ours We can get it – [Tom] Yeah, if you get any value out of it – We had a TV, had a busted leg Well, we bought it, brought it in, Bill put a new leg on, set it up there and sold it So everything we could, we sold – [Tom] Yeah, but you did it in house So was that kind of common practice for a large firm to have their own salvage operation? – I didn’t know of too many companies that had as big a salvage as we did And at each terminal you had what was called the thousand bay That was where your local salvage went Damaged and refused, whatever And then every 10 days or two weeks on her way, a truck going to Springfield with room, we’d put it on there and ship it dead head down to the salvage shop and then Bill could throw it away or he might sell it in a bulk But people would come in and buy groceries there – [Tom] Yeah, yeah? – And there’s one in Nixa I think, on the right hand side of 160 – [Tom] Oh yeah? – That back in there by Big O Tires I think that’s derailed freight – [Tom] Salvage – Yeah – [Tom] Is it bigger in the railroad side of things? – Well only when they, when a train derails, there’s a lot more salvageable than when a truck turns over (laughing) But yeah, the salvage that was a– – [Tom] So those are still around? – Oh yeah, yeah And like I said, once we pay you our claim, it’s ours – [Tom] Yeah – And if you won’t let us have it, we don’t have to pay you And you know, you had to be careful You had to really have your drivers You had constant training And let me tell you why We’ve got a shipment going over here to, let’s say Sam’s Club We’ve got a thousand pounds, 60 boxes We got 59 What’s short? The driver writes one short on the bill We are at their mercy – [Tom] Yeah, what is it – What’s short? Is it a case of wrist watches or is it a case of peanut butter? Because once that notation’s there, I’m on the hook as a carrier We used to do business with Gerber in Fort Smith We had a notation on a bill once, and I’ll never forget this if I live to be 100 One box rattles – [Tom] Yeah – Well, no kidding, it’s a box of Gerber baby rattles It should rattle (laughing) It was an ongoing thing What is short? What is missing? And if you just say one box, one carton short, guess what? That just became Rolex watches – [Tom] Yep They’re gonna pick the most expensive thing out of those 60 boxes – So you gotta know what you didn’t get there It was really exciting Now, that’s not a big issue, cargo claims A lot of your freight comes from 3PLs, which is brokers They just deduct it from your freight bill and say sue us Which is, and I wanted to tell you about that When deregulation came in July of 1980 and the ICC died,

was sunset in ’95, I think, don’t make me sign that Too much diesel fumes, but you had the section of motor carrier rules, regulations, cargo claims, loading, unloading, detention Everything was by rule They canceled the ICC Those rules are still on the book There’s just no one to enforce them Now the DOT FMCSA, Federal Highway Motor Care Safety Department of Transportation was supposed, when the ICC died, was supposed to take this over No sale They don’t even know what it is I’ve talked to them agents when we get audited All they want to do is look at hours of service, vehicle safety because that’s politically correct – [Tom] Yeah, yeah – And you see another huge change Those laws are still on the books You ever heard the term lumper? Okay You ever heard of Associated Wholesale Grocers? Ever heard of McLean? Wholesale Foods right over here? Every wholesale grocery company in the world has people that lurk around and they’re called lumpers They unload the trailer – [Tom] Oh yeah, yeah – Most of them don’t have green cards That’s none of my business, but you got to pay them What happens is, and this is all in the book, this is a law Nobody cares, but it is We go to Van Camp’s Pork and Beans and get 24 skids shrink wrapped of Van Camp’s Pork and Beans We bring it to you That’s all we’re obliged to do We pick up 24 skids We deliver 24 skids Now if that skid tie is not the way that warehouse wants it, they now make the carriers fix it or pay a lumper to do it We have to pick up the freight in the same manner in which, or deliver the freight in the same manner we deliver – [Tom] Oh, I see – Now, the reason I’m so familiar with that is I found that out the hard way We picked up in Cincinnati, Ohio I was a terminal manager in Omaha They picked up 3,000 cases of little Duncan Hines cake mixes 3,000, but they picked them up on the floor They weren’t skidded – [Tom] They weren’t skids, yeah – I raised all kinds of hell and you know, the ICC guy told me, he said, you picked it up that way, you deliver it that way So all we’re obliged to do, if we could pick up 24 skids that have 1,000 cases of Van Camp’s Pork and Beans, you don’t sign for 1,000, you sign for 24, and that’s the law But again, the DOT now doesn’t know how to do it and you know, CFR 249, I’m trying, I should have brought that too I’ve got a copy of the regulation It’s against the law and if they want to, they can fine the guy that does it, $10,000 per occurrence to force, coerce or intimidate a carrier into paying an outside party to unload his trailer at your facility And the big lawsuit, now I’ve still got that, it’s about that thick with a wholesale grocer company up in Michigan, they got fined about $9 million – [Tom] Really? – Yeah But all these lumpers are bad news I wrote to the people and told them, we’re missing revenue You don’t think these lumpers that get cash,

you don’t think they turn that in on their income tax, do you? Well, yes, yes, they do, I’m sure Particularly if they’re not even citizens – [Tom] That’s their responsibility, yeah – Yeah But the government’s losing money because not a one of them is paying taxes And I’ll bet you there’s a million of them – [Tom] Still prevalent, huh? – Why, they’re like vultures out there at AG – [Tom] Another question I had is for in town deliveries I know when I was in the wholesale food business, how you loaded the truck was kind of important And it wasn’t just, you know, it was pretty nuanced because you have to say, well, okay, we’ll probably get to this restaurant between 11 and one, they won’t even help us unload So you gotta think about how’s this load gonna get off at 20 different stops during the day in a way that’s very efficient both in terms of where you’re going, traffic, what you can do, when you can unload, what’s the ideal time to show up at this place – That was called, that was a really kind of a plum job back then, city dispatcher – [Tom] Yeah – You have road dispatch, which I did, but the city dispatch, and I’ll tell you how they did it too It was the neatest thing you ever saw They had to know every alleyway like, the best one I ever saw and he’s still alive, I see him every, Dwayne McKinney in Oklahoma City He knows every alley that there is in that town And you load your trucks where, that comes from here back then Now everything is computerized and it’s scanned and it pops up and tells you, but the way you, if you’re opening a new terminal and you don’t have somebody that knows every alleyway, you do what’s called a grid board You take a map of the city and you gridded off in one by two inch squares or two by two squares and then you have a dispatch box and it’s got the same number of squares ABC, one, two, three And you have cards for each of your customers When somebody takes a pickup, if it’s a new customer, you write their name, address, phone number, hours, et cetera And then you look them up and you get the grid So when the city dispatcher sits down, he gets a card for a pickup, B11 goes in B11 Right at the top of that group, B, you have the truck number and the thing that moves and as he picks them up, you just move him And you can take a grid board and never be in Seattle in your life, grid the thing out and do city dispatch – [Tom] Do pretty well – And the grid board in Kansas City was about as long as this table and went up at an angle probably three or four feet, and there was two full time city dispatchers in there all the time And that was nothing but, that wasn’t taking the pickups, that was doing it But isn’t that unique, the way they did it? – [Tom] Yeah, yeah – And the old guys figured that out – [Tom] Pre-computers – Huh? – [Tom] Pre-computers – Yes, oh yeah We had one computer at Campbell 66 and it took up the whole basement It had to be hermetically sealed, I think Climate controlled, temperature, humidity and that big mainframe they had, half the size of this room And now Shayne can do more with that thing on his desk than we could – [Tom] Well, we’re gonna have to wrap up I’ve got another appointment – Okay, I’m sorry I got long winded – [Tom] No, that’s good, that’s all good – I love this stuff Now here, I want you to take this with you This is a scan of the top 100 now – [Tom] Alright – Who owns them, what they do, so forth and so on So you can see this is 2017, this is 1980 to 1990, and this is 1965 And it’s not that you want to make a life out of knowing it, but it’s nice to, when you’re talking about history down this highway, it’s kind of nice, it’s kind of cool Here, I brought you – [Tom] Thanks – It’s kind of cool to see where we were

– [Tom] Yeah – You can’t understand where we are until you understand where we came from – [Tom] Yeah, and the farther we get away from it, it’s almost like– – Well, my generation is dying out – [Tom] For younger generations, it’s almost unimaginable Especially the ones that are born digital, they’d never have known a life without – Yeah, yeah, Shayne said once, “My dad’s the only living human that can run a truck line with a yellow legal pad and a dispatch board.” (laughing) – [Tom] Thanks again – He said once, I’m the last living human that knows how to city dispatch with a grid board – [Tom] Larry Posey, we’ve been speaking with Larry Posey today, so thanks again very much – Oh, my pleasure – [Tom] All great information – My pleasure